Leaseback Outside France

[eamon]

Anyone got experience of buying leaseback properties outside of France? I'm looking into a Pierre & Vacances development in Italy. I think you don't get the VAT back like you do in France. Just wondering if anyone has invested in an Italian leaseback and if they have any good or bad experiences to relate. Thanks.

 

[bothered]

Some points I tried to clarify with P & V on this property, and I am assuming it is Sardinia, and got conflicting answers were:
If you pay the management fee per annum, which they say varies between €1,200 and €2,200, is that it in fees? I was told yes that was it.
Then I was told you would have to pay for the sunbeds at the beach.
Then there was a figure of €35 per person quoted per week. The apt we were looking at was a 2 bed which took 6 people so that would work out at €35 x 6 for one week = €210 and for 2 weeks a whopping €420, as it is calculated per apartment. Each time I queried a figure the Dublin office had to check with the Italian office and the answers were on occasions vague and other times conflicting, we felt we would be very cautious about, proceeding. Why not have clear cut information? I just wanted to know could you just pay the fee per annum or what other charges are incurred? Also this resort is closed from September to May, I believe from someone who has bought an apartment in the first phase 3 years ago, when it was offered on leaseback. So your fees per annum actually cover 6 months. Also this resort is managed by an Italian company that P & V have subcontracted to and not P & V, and you have no guarantee that the information you get this year will not change as the management company changes. Hope this helps.

 

[aamstudent]

Hi, I would be very wary of Pierre & Vacances. We started the process of buying a leaseback and pulled out. Most of what we were told at the start was very different to what was actually in the contracts.

One thing that was not mentioned was that the unit must always be let as part of the complex. Our lawyer advised that the planning permission meant we could never have it for private use. We could rent other units in the same scheme but the local tax rules meant this was an investment to be always let. Our contact in P&V knew we were looking for something we could use ourselves in retirement but never flagged this up as an issue. They did say that we could have limited use in the apartment but technically it was not available for our personal use.

The amount of fees for use off season more that doubled when the contracts came through.

We were told renewal after the first 10 year lease period was optional but contracts specified that it was mandatory.

Nowhere is it spelt out what will happen after the second 10 year lease period.

We were told that the rent was guaranteed by P&V. The contracts showed that the rent was guaranteed by a different local company which had never traded. I asked for the rent to be underwritten by P&V. No way.

We were told the units could be sold on the open market but the contracts gave P&V a veto over any purchaser. Because the rents are fixed it is hard to see how local capital appreciation can feed into the resale prices of the apartments.

Finally, P&V promised that deposits would be refunded in 5 days but it took over 3 months to get our deposits back and this required persistent chasing. We got all sorts of excuses - joint venture, people leaving etc.

P&V always put great store on their reputation. In our experience they are cowboys.

I would not touch a leaseback now. There have been other good threads here explaining why they are not particularly good investment - inflated prices, restricted market if you need to sell etc

Hope this helps.

 

[euroDilbert]

Excellent post aamstudent - covers a lot of the reasons why I avoided leasebacks while being intially very interested in them.

One other point which may be relevant, depending on requirements, is that they are neither designed, nor suitable, for living in long-term i.e. retirement. They are designed as short-term holiday properties, with facilities e.g. storage geared to the same. The are usually pretty small, as well.