Law & Order in Limerick. Surely something must be done?

Taken from The Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...244364056.html

Gardaí investigate if murder linked to court case
CONOR LALLY and KATHRYN HAYES
GARDAÍ ARE investigating if the shooting dead of 35-year-old businessman Roy Collins in Limerick city yesterday may be linked to threats made against his family four years ago when his cousin gave evidence in court against a leading McCarthy-Dundon gang member.
Two men, aged 19 and 22, were last night being questioned about the murder. One of the men is a key suspect in the investigation into the mistaken identity murder of rugby player Shane Geoghegan in Limerick last November.
Mr Collins, whose father Steve Collins owns a number of Limerick pubs, was shot in the back just after midday in the Coin Castle Jackpot arcade in Roxboro Shopping Centre in the city.
The arcade is next door to the Steering Wheel Pub, which is owned by the Collins family, and is across the road from Roxboro Garda station.
A masked gunman and an accomplice walked into the arcade and shot Mr Collins in the back with a handgun as customers looked on. The bullet exited the victim’s chest.
Mr Collins was rushed to the Mid-Western Regional Hospital and was at first expected to survive. He was the father of two girls, Shannon (12) and Charlie (.
Mr Collins’s first cousin is Ryan Lee. The men were reared as brothers after Mr Collins’s father, Steve, became Ryan Lee’s legal guardian many years ago.
Mr Lee was shot in the family pub, Brannigan’s Bar, in 2005 after he refused to serve the 14-year-old sister of leading Limerick gang figure Wayne Dundon.
Mr Lee gave evidence against Wayne Dundon, who was jailed in 2005 for his threats to Mr Lee’s life.
During the trial Mr Collins received an anonymous letter threatening his staff and family and reminding him of all of the other victims of gun violence in the city.
Brannigan’s Bar was burned down a month after Dundon’s conviction and Mr Lee and the Collins family were given Garda protection. Gardaí are now investigating if the threats from that time are linked to yesterday’s murder.
A team of local detectives and officers from the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation have been assembled under Assistant Commissioner Kevin Ludlow to investigate yesterday’s murder. A Mercedes getaway car was found partially burned out in Rosbrien. Two shotguns were recovered last night, but neither was the murder weapon.
Mr Collins was from Monaleen, Limerick, but was living in Killaloe, Co Clare.
The mayor of Limerick city, John Gilligan, said the killers were “animals”.
“These people have stepped outside the bounds of humanity killing anyone that gets in their way. They will have to be taken out of society and if the gardaí need more resources to do this then the Minister for Justice will just have to supply them.”


This is like something you would read about from the streets of Columbia. This is the thrid innocent person murdered in Limerick. Something has to be done because society will collapse if this as allowed continue.

Is this not just natural progression of society? Don't get me wrong, if I had my way I'd round up the whole bloody lot of them and imprison them on an island. After all, the dog on the street knows who the scum are. Unfortunately, in a democracy this can't happen. Just look at America to see what's coming down the road as we progress socially. Soon, it'll be a badge of honour and a rite of passage to kill an officer of the law. Frightening times ahead.

I do think the Gardaí in Limerick are trying their best. They have a lot of crap to put up with, I think they have an ever present presence on the streets of the city, but they can't be everywhere 24 hours a day.

If they were to follow these guys day and night, think of the cost implications as well as the legal aspect, could the criminal in turn plead innocent and shout police harrassment?

Smashbox said:

I do think the Gardaí in Limerick are trying their best. They have a lot of crap to put up with, I think they have an ever present presence on the streets of the city, but they can't be everywhere 24 hours a day.

If they were to follow these guys day and night, think of the cost implications as well as the legal aspect, could the criminal in turn plead innocent and shout police harrassment?

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Too true, it seems the law is often on the side of the criminal. Democracy gone mad. That said, even Capital punishment hasn't worked in the States, quite the opposite.

It is a failing of police intelligence gathering (proactive policing) as well as bad social planning but in the end all of the criminals (be they teenaged or adult) are responsible for their own actions and should be treated as such.
People should be spending a minimum of 20 years in prison for murder and close to that for attempted murder (why get a lighter sentence because you are a bad aim?). Continue with the investment in the area and build a bigger prison so that the 100 or so head guys when arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced, can look forward to 20, 30 or 40 years in prison.
For example if anyone is found guilty of ordering the latest murder they should get life with a requirement that they spend at least 35 years in prison.

Bring in the army and have special courts. This PC stuff is right up their street. Convictions should be OKd on the word of a senior garda. The no-go areas are already a reality. Get rid of Groucho O'Dea and put someone in charge with some cojones - and not just when full of drink! Do the Revenue/Social Welfare not deal with low level cases? You only see/hear about the big fellows. If a fellow is driving around in a fairly decent car after being unemployed since school, then questions should be asked. A bit of basic spadework would go a long way.

The problem as I see it is that we're too soft. Most of these criminals have records as long as me arm. The prisons we have in Ireland are like hotels. The criminals should be made to work in chain gangs in bright pink overalls. We should also introduce a three strikes and you're out system for dangerous violent criminals.

If we could get them alll to shoot themselves like that idiot a few weeks ago.

Thing is, these scumbags are conditioned by their environment. These guys only know one way and fully accept that they are walking targets and are PROUD of that. They have zero respect for the law, remember that knacker of a Liam Keane and his two-fingered salute when he got away scot-free on a murder charge? A stretch in prison only adds kudos with their peers. Its their mentality that needs adjustment, preferably by flogging, though this would only drive them to revenge. So the circle continues viciously.

Purple said:

It is a failing of police intelligence gathering (proactive policing) as well as bad social planning but in the end all of the criminals (be they teenaged or adult) are responsible for their own actions and should be treated as such.

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And yet the years roll on and nothing changes. And boy will the lesson be learnt today, don't dare stand up to the thugs. He was a brave man but what a price to pay. Would I pay that price? It'll all be ignored and hushed up again as 'people getting at Limerick'. The truth is that the local population are cowed into submission. And those that aren't move out if they can.

After prisoners are convicted why are they allowed to shield their faces? Surely the taxpayer should have the right to see who they are paying for. Prison should also be a deterrent - where social education should be a must, or privileges should not be given. The rights of society should not be undermined by recidivists. Some of the hard shaws who do not want to conform should be sent to a Gulag type prison. Plenty of medication would improve their situation. Remember, society as a whole is in danger. As baldyman27 said earlier, look at the projects in LA, Chicago, Detroit. That's whats down the road for us. Not a prospect to look forward to.

Hard Labour, that is what needed. People convicted of gang land criminality need to be punished by a long prision term that includes hard labour and not a cell with drugs/mobile phones and stuff.

And I see no difference in attempted murder and murder, both are the same for me, just because you failed you were still after the same result.

Than gain I think some driving while intoxicated and causing a deadly accident should be treated as a murderer and hung.

We are way to PC in this country and our weak law enforcement (and that is not only in Limerick, that's the same with banks/builders shamefull activities) is not doing what they could.

It's time to adopt a hard line approach with this scumbags.

Bronte said:

And yet the years roll on and nothing changes. And boy will the lesson be learnt today, don't dare stand up to the thugs. He was a brave man but what a price to pay. Would I pay that price? It'll all be ignored and hushed up again as 'people getting at Limerick'. The truth is that the local population are cowed into submission. And those that aren't move out if they can.

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Don't get carried away with yourself. The local population don't come up against the 'gangs' and people are not moving out if they can. You could put that story to any part of Ireland at this stage and it would ring through. I have been in every part of Limerick and there are parts you would make a habit of avoiding but by and large it is just a city, there are no dangers that are not evident in all of the other cities.

Unfortunately, the drug-gang culture is everywhere at the moment and certain areas are worse than others. I really dont understand why the Gardai cannot act against the people in Limerick because it seems really obvious who they are and they are quite a small circle of people.

There was a shocking photo of a five year old giving a v sign at a funeral in Limerick a couple of weeks ago.

Having said that, Dublin is just the same, I looked out my office window a few weeks back and saw Gardai combing the area. Found out later there were pipe bombs there - great.

What exactly is stopping judges from coming down heavy on thugs - any thugs, but in particular reoffending thugs?

These little animals may think they are immune from the law, have far too many rights etc when in custody, but when it comes to the crunch, and they are found guilty, why go soft on them then when it's the perfect opportunity to stick the boot in?

A local judge near me is becoming notorious for not taking any BS - minor offences, generally public order - but e.g. the old "ah he had drink taken" defense doesn't wash with him, neither does the would be burglar who ends up battered by the homeowner.

If all judges took a harder line there would be less room for appeal as maximum or near maximum punishment (be they fines/sentences/labour/confiscation of property for theft - a good one I think) would become the norm.

DublinTexas said:

Hard Labour, that is what needed. People convicted of gang land criminality need to be punished by a long prision term that includes hard labour and not a cell with drugs/mobile phones and stuff.

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Has this worked anywhere else? Di you really think that they are going to be bothered by risk of hard labour when they aren't really that bothered by living under death threats from their street enemies?

I can't understand the long delays between these guys being charged and the cases coming to court. There must be some way of speeding this up.

Complainer said:

I can't understand the long delays between these guys being charged and the cases coming to court. There must be some way of speeding this up.

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How about giving the judges bonus payments per capita/per annum, sort of thing. A bit like the bankers
In all seriousness 'tho, special courts must be considered. And the army. The new statement by the head honcho is just a soundbite. We've had too many of these over the past decade.

DublinTexas said:

Hard Labour, that is what needed. People convicted of gang land criminality need to be punished by a long prision term that includes hard labour and not a cell with drugs/mobile phones and stuff.

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Caveat said:

If all judges took a harder line there would be less room for appeal as maximum or near maximum punishment (be they fines/sentences/labour/confiscation of property for theft - a good one I think) would become the norm.

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Simeon said:

How about giving the judges bonus payments per capita/per annum, sort of thing. A bit like the bankers

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Don't know the details but obviously Judges in the US have much more freedom.

A notorious reoffending junkie (muggings, violence, robbery) I read about was before a certain judge there, deciding that a custodial sentence was inappropriate (due to heroin availability probably) he enforced a fine - the defendant was a welfare recipient and claimed to be unable to pay so the judge decided that he would then confiscate the few meagre possessions the guy had - not only that, but his victims were allowed to keep/destroy them as they saw fit.

Fairly ghoulish and voyeuristic in the end, but I'm sure the disabled man who was mugged had some satisfaction in burning the only photo the defendant had of his late partner.

Rough justice media/hollywood style maybe, and I'm not necessarily condoning it, but it's an example of what's possible.

MrMan said:

Don't get carried away with yourself. The local population don't come up against the 'gangs' and people are not moving out if they can.

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Are there not certain parts of Limerick that are no go areas, in those areas there are law abiding people who would like to move out but cannot. These parts of town are run by a small few thugs.

They have also tried to solve the problem by moving some of the problem people out to 'nice' areas. They have created no end of havoc in the places they have moved.

I visited Limerick last week and I saw where the shooting took place, I couldn't believe how close the large police station was to it.

The two men that did the shooting are irrelvant, (as even the father of the dead man said), it's those that ordered the shooting that needs to be apprehended. The father knows who ordered it as does the gardai, will they be jailed............

Bronte said:

Are there not certain parts of Limerick that are no go areas, in those areas there are law abiding people who would like to move out but cannot. These parts of town are run by a small few thugs.

They have also tried to solve the problem by moving some of the problem people out to 'nice' areas. They have created no end of havoc in the places they have moved.

I visited Limerick last week and I saw where the shooting took place, I couldn't believe how close the large police station was to it.

The two men that did the shooting are irrelvant, (as even the father of the dead man said), it's those that ordered the shooting that needs to be apprehended. The father knows who ordered it as does the gardai, will they be jailed............

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There are a couple of rough estates that are out of the way and rather than no go areas I would say no need to go areas same as alot of towns and cities. I've been in all of them and while there is definitely a social problem there its not quite the wild west. I wouldn't want to live in these areas but they do not represent Limerick and would equate to less than 10% of the area.

As regards moving the problem people, that is how it is perceived, but they are not all problem people and again 'problem people' are not just a Limerick issue, far from it.

The shooting showed the contempt for the law, just like the General did and many more from around the country. It is a nationwide issue and to concentrate on one city doesn't help matters. Will the shooters be caught, I don't know there isn't a great history of solving gangland crime in the state.