Key Post: Central Heating

Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Now for my two cents worth. I would go for a condensing boiler, not combi and fit a new rapid recovery factory insulated hot water cylinder. If you go for a cylinder with a top or side entry thermostat probe you can fit a 3 port motorised valve to divert hot water flow from the cylinder once the stored water temp is high enough . To ensure maximum efficiency all pipework connections to the cylinder should be insulated in accordance with Building Regulations Part L, this is often omitted. Also I'd replace rads with new, old ones will probably be filled with sludge and suffering from corrosion. fit Thermostatic radiator valves(TRVs) to all rads. I can personally recommend "Drayton" valves, I recently replaced older valves in my house with this model, they are good value, high quality and very responsive. You can fit a newer type of circulating pump which is also modulating and varies the speed according to demand, important where TRVs are used. Also very important to flush system through to remove any scale, dirt etc. When refilling add Fernox inhibitor to your system and you'll have the most efficient heating system around.
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Thanks for the response .
Adding a solar heating system to an already existing heating system makes sense , Lakeview , because you won't get energy for free . When using a carbon based fuel like oil or gas one always has to pay for every kilo watt . No matter how efficient an existent heating system is working , nothing comes for nothing .
That means even when our efficiency is 100 % we still have to pay for the fuel .
But the sun delivers for free - once we we have the means to make use of it.
When someone decides to deliver us coal for free to the front of the door we still have to bring it in , have to bring out the ash , provide for the stove and the chimney and the bunker and maintain these .
Installing a tank with the third loop ( like Lakeview !) was a wise decision , it will certainly make it worth -not only in terms of money - to install a solar collector as well . Calculating the pay back time for these additional costs is an individual task , mainly depending on the demand of hot water and the cost of the "alternative " carbon based fuel . The Irish energy center at http://www.irish-energy.ie/ provides us about three times a year with fuel comparrison sheets where we can ( roughly ) compare the prices of different fuels needed to create one kilowatt of heat .
As Carpenter has said it might be important to use an anti corrosive agent in the heating system . But that is not an issue with a modern underfloor heating system because there aren't many metall parts in such a system and once the system/loops have been filled they stay more or less untouched for the rest of their life time . The lower the running temperature the less the corrosion . But using radiators - as Marion is planning - would make it necessary . The hotter flow temperature running in a radiator system makes any chemical reaction just happening faster/more agressive . And there are more connection points in a radiator system , increasing the chance of chemical reactions just caused by two different materials touching each other and by the chance of air entrance as well .
With all heating systems the thermostatic valves are a great developement . Not only that they give much more comfort , they really save money/energy .
More recent models come even with distance (remote ) control , like a TV set , they even have timers build in . But if these features realy safe money ( pay-back time ) depends on the developement of future energy prices . They certainly ad to the comfort if the user is not overwhelmed by all their possibilitys.
 
Conversion to gas central heating

I have an excellent plumber who commented last year during the annual maintenance of my gas central heating system/gas fires that very shortly it would be required by law to replace the old system located in the chimney breast. He also advised that house-hunters were now asking for reduction on the asking price of older houses if they did not have the combination-boiler system.

I have a few questions. My next-door neighbours have a combi boiler. You say it is relatively quiet. HOWEVER the flue of my neighbours' exits on their kitchen wall about 8' away from my kitchen window and when it is 'firing up' there is intermittent high-pitched noise. Also, the waste gas comes 'straight out' (i.e. the outlet pipe does not turn upward. Must this be the case? Is there an alternative arrangement?

Secondly, I understand other demands on the hotwater supply can affect the temperature of the shower. Setting up separate systems for underfloor heating, central heating etc. have been mentioned. How expensive would this be?

Finally - should the old contraption (you call it 'the banger') be taken out and discarded. Is this a job for the builder or the plumber?
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Heinbloed, another thought!

I have 2 electric showers - one in an ensuite and the other in the main bathroom. I despise both of them not because of the brand name - they are both Triton E100 - but because I live in a very high limescale area.

The water temperature often switches from hot to cold and can obviously be dangerous when it switches to hot!. I remove the shower heads very often to clear the lime scale granules. I would be happy to replace both showers with something that would give a decent shower without the risk of being scalded. My house, which was a new build, is just about 8 years' old.

Would this issue still arise with a combi boiler or the rapid recovery boiler if I were to replace the electric showers with regular showers with a thermostatic control?

It is not possible for me to get on the main gas line (our estate was finished when they came to the town - I did enquire, but never got a reply nor did others in the estate.) so I will have to go the LPG route. At present, I have a gas fire and a gas hob. With my extension, I will have an additional gas fire. Currently, my central heating is by oil. It also heats my tap water. I also currently have an emersion water tank in the hot press. I have 2 Gas tanks which change over when one is empty. So, I think it would be better to completly switch to LPG.

Also, Heinbloed, why do you say (elsewhere) that the water from an attic tank is unhygenic. That is where my current shower water and upstairs bathroom/ensuite water is coming from - isn't it?


I haven't yet received my plans for my new extension. They are on the way! I will try and incorporate as many energy-efficient products as I can afford - heating, windows etc.

Thanks for your invaluable help so far!

Marion
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Hi Marie !


There is a difference between a " simple combi boiler " and a " Modulalating Combi Condensing Boiler " what might explain the noise from your neighbours boiler that you hear.
Boiler manufacturers will give you the decibels ( unit for noise/sound) created by their products. Compare them.The lower the number the more quiet they run.
A flue pipe can be directed anywhere.
A Combi Boiler - no matter how modern it is - will do two things independently. It warms water for the taps AND it warms water tu run in the heating circuit.
Think about your kitchen cooker . You can use the different plates and the baking department at different temperatures . Independently from each other.
On the one plate you have the frying pan at 180 degrees whilst next to it you can have a sauce simmering at 100 degrees.
That is the meaning of a combi boiler . It combines several features.And all of them can be set by the user to do what they should do. The amount of heat, the running time , both can be regulated by the knob / switch.
Anyone with a bit of elbow grease and a few tools can dismantle an old boiler . Maybe the new waste regulations concerning electric goods will catch here, you might be able to give back the old boiler where you buy the new one . Old boilers will contain asbestos, so they won'be excepted as scrap metall but are hazardous waste , call at your local council what to do with it.
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Hi Marion !The higher the temperature the more lime scale will be created. An electric shower heats the water up to around 90 C and then mixes it with cold water to cool it back . A modulating boiler will heat up only so far that the set temperature will be reached and then MODULATES the flame to keep the temperature of the water at the set temperature.
Compare it with a TV set : instead of having it set at full blast and then wearing ear protection to stand the blarring noise you could regulate the sound and safe on the ear protection.
Or with a bath tub : instead of filling it with boiling water first and then adding cold water you can have it filled with an ambient temperature of your choice in the first place.
A modulating boiler will do that for you, it keeps the temperature at a point that you want. You set it at 40 degrees and it warms the water to 40 degrees. If you set it at 41 degrees it warms the water to 41 degrees . And so on.
This has two advantages. First it safes energy. Secondly it avoids the build up of lime scale. Remember : The hotter the water the more agressive / the faster chemical reactions happen . I have a private well for example.The water test reveals that I have hard water ( ? ) - 120mg disolved lime per liter . My kettle is nearly always covered in limescale , it takes 2-4 days after cleaning it to come back.The kettle runs at 100 degrees Celsius and produces only a few liters per week. The boiler runs at 43 degrees Celsius and produces hundreds or thousands of liter per week.But neither the boiler nor the shower nor the taps show any sign of limescale. But it is the same water from the same well they use.
It makes economical sense to switch from electric energy to gas.See the fuel comparrison sheets from the Irish Energy Center.
But bottled gas is expensive . And hiring a tank is expensive as well. Because you will be stucked with the LPG company that hires the tank to you-you can't buy the LPG some where else where it would be cheaper.
As the saying goes in Arabia : first you give away the lamps for free and then you sell the oil for them !
So buy your LPG tank . It cost around € 800 .- initially and then the savings come in. LPG costs at least 20 pecent less on the free market.But they deliver only to you if you have proof of tank purchase , the bill showing that you have bought the tank . LPG from the free market costs as much as natural gas . The people from the Irish Energy Center haven't even heard about that method , they give the prices only for fillings of rented tanks .
But check the larger supermarkets in areas without natural gas connection , they all go for LPG in tanks that they have purchased . Not rented . Who would be so " stupid " and rent a car when one is only allowed to buy the petrol for it at the same and only petrol station whos owner is the car rental company !?
But you have already an oiltank.So you could buy a Modulating Combi Condensing Boiler running on oil .They exist . The choice isn't that big but they are widely in use . They are slightly louder than gas boilers but not much , again : compare the decibels and their features with the aid of the sedbuk page.

I'm afraid that I'm logged in to long so I stop here.
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Back ....again.

The hygene problem with the tanks in the roof is eminent.Most of our public water comes from open reservoirs , lakes , rivers . So it needs chlorine to get the bacterias immobilised / killed . Chlorine is a gas. Gas stays in liquids only as long as these are under pressure . As long as the water is pumped through the pipes it is under pressure. As soon it is tapped/released from the pipe the pressure is not existing anymore . The gas ( here: chlorine ) will evaporate.
Compare it with a bottle of sparkling water : As soon as you take the lid from the bottle the carbondioxide will evaporate . If the bottle comes from the fridge it will take hours . If you place it in the sun it will take minutes . The warmer the water the faster it reacts. See the article above as well .
Tanks in the attic are open . So the chlorine will evaporate. Especially in summer . When it is warm . And when it is mostly needed because of a higher bacteria count in the river water . Bacterias - esp. colis- love it warm. Tanks are not insulated from below so the heat released from your ceiling , usually the hot press, is keeping them even warmer. To avoid the water freezing in winter.
That is the pressure related hygene problem.
But there are more : Tanks are open. That means thirsty mices and all your lodgers in the attic can drown in them. In the old times people where advised to put a stick in them so creatures can safe them self from drowning . Otherwise you would be having mice soup from the tap . Or spider coffee . Or rat tea .
Remember that the chlorine wouldn't be working any more since it has evaporated.
Third point : Our roofs are insulated with loose glass wool . These fibres are very fine and end up at sticky surfaces . Moist surfaces are sticky surfaces - as the water surface in your open tank. Take a strong lamp with you into the attic and see yourself how much dust is hoovering through the air.
But there is more than glass wool . Pesticides and fungicides released from the timber , PACs from the roofing felt . And so on.
So going for a closed , pressurised system is the only answer to the problem . The rest of the world is doing so . In the last issue ( No.9) of the magazine " Construct Ireland " an Irish plumber wrote an article about the issue . With the conclusion that Irish plumbing is the worst he came across.
I said so here one or two years ago and was attacked by several plumbers here in the forum . They have been remarkable quiet in the last time. I hope they are o.k..
Did you know that Ireland has the highest antibiotic consumption per capita in the EU ? We try to make up with tablets what we lack on hygene .What is good for business of course , see all the new drug shops/pharmacists .
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating


Heinbloed - I have seen you mention the "free market" in a couple of posts. What or who do you mean? Calor or Flogas are the only people who operate the locked in rent and re-fill arrangement. When you say free market are you just bargaining these two against each other?
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Hi All
Regarding Heinbloed's comment about underflor heating systems not requiring corrosion inhibitor beacuse of plastc pipework, correct to a point....but the boiler heat exchanger is still metallic (aluminium alloy or steel) and prone to corrosion. Fernox also state that their inhibor will improve eficiency of any central heating system.

Spot on regarding water tanks in attics. All new houses are now plumbed with a plastic (polypropylene usually) tank that comes complete with a cover, thankfully. however even with the cover insects will still find a way in, usually through the overflow pipw, which tends to terminate in the eaves/ soffit. water from such storage tanks is fine for washing etc but not for consumption. Regarding limescale Marion should consider fitting a water softener, easy to fit and cheap to run it will prolong the life of your water consuming electric appliances by years, check out www.culligan.co.uk for details of how they operate. It is important to leave the kitchen tap water unsoftened for drinking.........
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Hi Lakeview !
By " free market " in the LPG business I mean that you can buy LPG where you want.
Signing a contract with a company that rents the tank means that you would have to buy the gas from the same company . To the conditions they decide .
That is the opposite of a free market.
Compare it with Eircom . They owned the line . You had to use them and no other company. The prices where high . Only when EU law forced the government to open the market the prices came down.
Compare it with the puplic transport , the post ect. As long as you are hooked to the only supplier you take it or leave it . No choice.
With the LPG it is a similar thing. See my article above .
The alternative is to buy the tank and phone around for filling . The price difference is huge .
Flogas , Calorgas , Blue gas ect. are not working in a competitive environment . It would be bad for their wallet.
And you don't have to wait for the EU or Dublin to enforce competition .
You simply choose yourself if you want to be cheated . Sign the contract and you loose out.
If you have a shoping bag from Tesco Spar would still fill it for you . Not so the gas tank hire companys. They won't interfere/compete with each other.
Tank maintenance , once every ten years a pressure test , can be done by any gas fitter . He would not have to be employed by a particular company.
We have cars running on LPG . The NCT is testing them , resp. the garage on the road . Not the petrol station . Nor Flogas , Calor gas ect. who rent the tanks to the petrol/LPG stations .
Yes, I'm bargaining any one who want's to do business with me . And Flogas and Calorgas are always loosing the job . Because they are very expensive . At the moment Tervas is getting my orders . Because they are cheaper. The product and the service is the same. It comes all from the same refinery in Cork . And they don't do special orders for the individual hauliers and traders ( quality ! ) . It is allways from the same big tank . Adhering to the same standards . So a big name means nothing - except a big price.
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Hi Carpenter !

I insist on the fact that a closed heating system needs no chemical inhibitor.
Here is a quick lesson in metallurgical science :
First reason : Modern boilers have a " probe " ( is that the correct term ? ) build in that would rust away before the system starts to rust .This " sonde" is made of a weaker metall , one could call it also a build- in- fault . This is a normal feature in industrial boilers since a century or so .
Secondly : Once the water in the closed loop has had some time to react with the probe (and what ever metall is there ) it is saturated . It will just stop to react . It won't be agressive to the metall in the system no more .
Modern boilers need maintenance , once per year at least . Then the probe will be checked and replaced if necessary .
I think I have seen these probes even in modern immersion/waterstorage tanks here in Ireland .
It is a different story though with an open ( " vented " ) system . With these there is a regular topping up necessary . New ,fresh ,sometimes agressive water is
filled into the system . That - and the fact that the outdated banger/boiler simply have no " probe " - makes these inhibitors necessary .A nice job creation scheme is that , isn't it ?!
The boilers rust away , the radiators rust away and both, manufacturers and fitters are happy. Who in all earnest is measuring the inhibitor concentration when aerating the radiators and refilling them ? And replacing the lost inhibitor ?
The heat exchangers in modern boilers are meant to be covered in a patina ( on their inside, the water contacting side ) that helps to protect them . Like a cast iron pole or a raindrain that is covered in rust . The rust protects it against rusting .
Or as the zink oxide on a zinked ( galvanised ) screw. As long as there is no mechanical/chemical abrassion of the oxide layer it will last a very long time . With rust sitting on it and protecting it .
I hope that clears the situation a bit.

Regarding the watersoftener. These things are not realy cheap . They need regular replacement of the salt.The salt will kill off the good bacterias in the septic tank . Or in the reed bed . That leads to pollution of the ground water . And that is very expensive. Demanding a new water supply.What makes the plumbers happy .
The salt comes from the Netherlands or Germany ( Solvay ). One needs about a bag of 25 kg every so often, once or twice per quarter in a 2 person household depending on the hardness of the water to be treated.
Controlling people that they should not drink the water from the taps or the shower or the american style fridge is hard . If you have a guest house or mentally handicaped people or children in the house it is impossible.
Water must contain a certain amount of chalk. To protect the pipes from corroding . See above . The patina (in this case a thin layer of chalk/lime) protects us from a copper or zinc poisoning as well . Pipes running demineralised water are extremly prone to corrosion . What keeps the plumber happy . But causes a hole in the wallet of the house holder.
Marie has this problem with the shower heads only as far as I understood.
Why not solving the problem at it's root ? Avoid to heat up the water to exessive temperatures and the problem is solved.
That not only safes on detergents to clean the shower heads but also on electricity . A powershower is not necessary with modern plumbing . An electric water heating system is not necessary . The tank in the hot press is not necessary. The tanks in the attic are not necessary .
The plumber looses out.The consumer gains comfort and a cheaper utility bill.
By switching to a modern plumbing system . With a pressurised water system and a modulating combi condensing boiler taking care of the rest.
No Tanks . No Salt. No anti corrosion agents.
In the old times one needed a stall , a horse in it , a cart , a barn for the barley and a shed for the cart , a farm labourer , a smith , a wheelmaker, a horsetrainer and a coach man . To get from A to B .
These times are gone.
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Heinbloed
My comments regarding the use of an inhibitor were intended to be applicable to an open vented system, which is case with most houses built in this country. The "probe" you refer to is a sacrificial anode and the chemical reaction which takes place is akin to that which occurs in a wet battery (such as a 12V car battery). True such anodes are built into all copper storage cylinders and most boiler now, but not so in the case of radiators. Regardless of the PH level or lime content of the water in a system there will be some very gradual "erosion" or chemical stripping of pipework (copper) and metal components in a heating system. This can result in the sludge or magnetite that is found in older untreated systems. I think for the sake of €35 or so I would still add an inhibitor to an open, vented system, regardless of sacrificial anodes. Of course nobody checks the inhibitor level of their system, but a well maintained system that is leak free should not be refilling at all, save to top up losses from the system through evaporation from the expansion tank in the attic. There are other benefits to using the Fernox product which are well outlined on their website, so I won't repeat them here, suffice to say that water treated with the inhibitor conducts the heat better and more efficiently, is better for TRVs etc.

Your argument regarding water softeners is I believe flawed. The amount of salt water discharged from the brine tank is quite small and would not harm the bacteria in any reed bed or septic tank, unless tiny. A water softener would typically discharge approx. 4 litres of brine each time it regenerates (every other day). This compares to how many litres of detergent ridden water discharged via dishwashers, washing machines etc. The overzealous use of detergents is a big factor in the performance of any waste water treatment system. By fitting and using a water softener you can actually reduce the amount of detergents required in the home, thus reducing the amount of detergent and phosphates which end up in your septic tank, reed bed etc.
Furthermore your argument about not heating up water to such a high temperature is I'm afraid incorrect. Lime will deposit on any surface at any temeperature. Any householder with a hard water supply will unhappilly confirm this, look at the wc pan in such a house, look inside the cistern for such a toilet, better still look at the cold water storage tank in the attic. Even a new tank after just a few years service will have a small layer of lime scale visible as sediment in the bottom of the tank and a visible tide mark at the water line. Sure, heating the water to high temperatures exacerbates the problem but if the lime is there it will deposit itself on your household fixtures and fittings, regardless of temeperature. The cost of a softener system (say €1000 max, incl. installation and bypass arrangement) and it's running costs (€7.50 for a 25 kilo bag) will easily repay itself over time by extending the useful life of appliances, reduction in the use of detergents and a consequent reduction in the use of the electricity required to run most of these appliances. There is no argument here I'm afraid, most people given the option would opt for soft water, each and every time. The economic and environmental implications of a hard water supply are considerable when all is taken into account. Your comment regarding the corrosive effect of a softened water supply on metallic pipes is interesting. Years ago when lead pipe was used for watermains and feed pipes this would have been a major concern, but not anymore. Most public water mains are now PVC, Class C with individual mains feeds to each house being HDPE and are resistant to any chemical attack. Most plumbing with the modern house tends to be plastic and whatever copper there is will be unaffected by a soft water supply. The sacrificial anode will protect the pipwork for the hot water ("more aggressive")supply in any case. There were problems in the past (1970s building boom) where a cheaper, poor quality copper pipe was used in this country, to the detriment of everybody. Good quality, stamped copper pipework would be expected to last 60 years or more. Your other comment about drinking softened water from taps other than the kitchen tap is hardly a serious point. The only creature to drink (softened) water from the toilet is usually the family cat or dog on a hot day! American fridges should only be plumbed using an unsoftened supply. I would never drink water from any source other than the main kitchen tap and I think that people with special needs or children would do likewise, in any case softened water will not kill, but water from a dirty/ tepid cold water storage tank might give your stomach a little shock. Your contention for a mains pressure closed system is interesting, both systems have flaws and merits. However an mains fed system is dependant on good mains pressure, which can be variable, depending on location. I see nothing wrong with a good, well designed, well installed open vented system. Any system is only as good as its constituent components and the level of maintenance it receives. Your comment regarding horses, oats etc is frankly ........humorous! however while we can dispense with those 19th century accoutrements we cannot rely on our plumbing systems (indeed any part of our house/ car other consumer items) to be maintenance free. Most people do not concern themselves with the location of their water storage tanks, valves etc. until there's a problem. In fact Homebond have produced a small informative guide for new homebuyers which goes some way to address this issue. That's my two cents worth for now.
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Thanks , Carpenter , for following up my long posts. We could write books about the issue , they are badly needed .

My question to you : What happens to the Sodiumchloride in the dehardening plant ? Where does it end up? The normal consumption of sodium chloride in an ordinary house hold is around 200 g per month ( just guess work on my side ). Or 2.5 Kg per year . Increasing that amount by 100 times is certainly having an effect on any sewage bacteria life.Sweet water would be turned into salt water.

And than seeping into the ground.

Most people don't know that the main kitchen tap is the only source for drinking water . And most plumbers don't either . The EU -and the WHO - regulations state that drinking water taps must not be made to be confused with dirt/grey water taps. That means taps releasing water not fit for human consumption must be clearly marked as such. By design and by colour and by technical features of the taps. As well as the pipes .All pipes running water not fit for human consumption must be clearly identifyable.

This is never adhered to here in Ireland and in GB neither. But on the continent they stick to these rules . Are the plumbers to stupid ? Or is it the consumer who doesn't want to know ? Or is it the health board looking for a job ?

About the inhibitor : Cast metals don't rust. The priest does not polish the bells to remove the rust (smiley) . Cast metals are the aluminia heat exchangers and the brass manifolds and the brass junktions and bends . And most pumps. So the inhibitor realy is only necessary with cheap radiators in connection with cheap boilers. Which are heavy on the wallet due to their high energy consumption .And their short life time .

A pressurised heating system is simply more efficient than a vented system .Pumped pressurised water is transporting more heat/energy than non-pressurised water.

And running it on low temperature is making any inhibitors useless.

About the lime depositing effect of hot water : Maybe you mixed up the depositing of lime with the depositing of manganese and iron. This would happen in cold water as well. Not so the lime . The lime is kept in the water by the aid of carbondioxide which disolves it at source , in the ground rocks . Carbondioxide has an acetic effect on lime. But as in a lemonade bottle : As soon as the pressure is gone the CO2 is released . In warm water even faster . And that causes the formerly dissolved lime to fall out.

When you check the hot springs around our globe -be it Turkey , Iceland or the Yellowstone - you will see heavy deposits building up downstream and around the well itself. Not so in natural wells that are cold . These cold wells are actually eating away the surrounding rock ( due to the etching effect of the carbondioxide ) and therby creating crevices and valleys.

I hope that Marion will forgive us for using this post as a plumbers mailbox .

 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Good Morning Heinbloed,
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. not sure about your point regarding carbon dioxide etc surely there is no (or very little ) CO2 in the plumbing system. BUT I still contend that no amount of salt water (to a point obviously) will create as much problems for the anaerobic organisms in a septic tank/ reed bed as will more detergents. Harder water means more detergent use and use of harsh acid descalers to remove it which invariably end up being flushed down the drain. I think I'd rather have salt seeping into the ground as leachate from a treatment tank than phosphates, ammonia etc.

Your point about cast metals is debatable, only iron based alloys can rust, but all metals (to a greater or lesser degree) can oxidise and corrode over time. Some metals resist oxidisation very well others not so. Most radiators supplied for housing in this country (and probably most commercial buildings also) are of the pressed and folded steel sheet variety, your VEHA, Kingspan, Myson etc. All are prone to rust if the right conditions prevail.

Aluminium alloys can corrode, especially in the presence of harsh fluxes commonly used in brazing and soldering operations by the plumber, which is why they should be removed by flushing through any installation after completion. Cast iron can also corrode in the presence of moisture and oxygen. It is moderately resistant to corrosion compared to say mild steel but not impervious. I think the inhibitor plays an inportant role where a combination of brass, aluminium, copper and steel (or cast iron) are used together in a wet system- it can prevent galvanic action, the wet battery effect. This can and does happen, brass fitings in particular are prone to dezincification, which is why most manufacturers produce a range or dezincification resistant fittings, usually stamped CR or Corrosion Resistant.

The debate of pressurised versus open vented systems rages on. Most punters are not interested in the efficiencies or perceived benefits of a pressurised system versus an open vented arrangement. Most homeowners ( I don't like to generalise but I can't see otherwise) are more interested in the merits of solid oak versus laminate, pvc woodgrain versus white etc etc. As europeans we have a long way to go regarding our appreciation of our impact on the environment through wasteful use of energy and resources. For my part I'd be happy to see more householders install a well designed, open vented heating and plumbing system, with good controls, well insulated and maintained.

It's been an enjoyable discourse.
 
Re: Conversion to gas central heating

Hi Carpenter !

I know from my time in school that all house hold detergents must break down by 98 % within 4 days of release into the environment , into the treatment plant .That is the internationall standard , some bottles even say so on the label . So from 1 liter of detergent only 20 gramms max. are allowed to stay intact. These 2 % would be , in most cases , sodiumchloride .The amount of non- breaking -down substances (sodiumchloride) is limited to 2 % to protect the goodies in the sewage plant , reed bed , septic tank . The former two work aerobic b.t.w..
I have to insist on the fact that releasing salt in excess is killing all germs . Salt is a preservative . It kills . Bacterias and other micro organisms as well . Releasing salt bagwise into a septic tank will destroy not only the cleaning effect but in the long time the steel reinforced concrete as well. Our septic tanks are not designed to take salt water. My reed bed isn't either . And the salt will destroy the ground water.
I know that salt used for deicing plane runways -like in Dublin or in Shannon -causes severe problems . Even when used in tiny amounts/percentages over the year.Trees get killed in their thousands every year along the road because of salt .
Acid , used to dissolve lime deposits , in turn is harmless for the goodies in the sewage treatment plant . Right , it could demage the concrete of the septic tank . But in the standard dossage it actually benefits the sewage plant . I did a presentation at school about the issue, visited a sewage treatment plant to get first hand information . The people there insisted that they can handle acid very well, it will break down in the plant , that it will make their job easier because of it's neutralising effect on the alkaline sewage. To me as some one who had seen the warning symbols on acid containers that was amazing , but they where right of course.
So using now and then some cheap acid like acetic acid or sulfuric acid or hydrochloric acid to clean lime deposits is no problem at all. But using salt in a permanent dosing is dangerous to the environment . And expensive .
For as little as € 2.50 or so you could buy a small flask of dilluted sulfuric acid
in Lidl . Made from recycled sulfur from a desulfurisation stack in a power plant . So good for the environment in two ways . And no extra installment costs . And the water from the pipe stays drinkable . Cheap, efficient .
Phosphate is b.t.w. phased out as a detergent ingredient . At the moment you won't find more than 5 % in any house hold detergent and the amount still going down . Most manufacturers are already producing phosphate free detergents . Some use no phosphate at all any more.
Modern pressurised shower heads have silicone jets . These are self cleaning .
But of course that is of no use to some one who has an antique bucket- on- the-roof system .
The white deposits at the tank in the attic could as well be the result of traetment of the water suply . Aluminia is added to our public water to make it look nice . As well as flouride . And chlorine . The combination of to many chemicals can cause a fall out as well . Especially if the conditions of the water changes . From pressurised/cold to open/warm . From the pipe to the tank . Adding salt is just another nail to the coffin .
And the cast metall: We find cannons made from cast brass hundreds of years old in salt water in 20 feet depths on corall reefs . Intact . The labels ( smiley ) still on . Exposed to corrosive sodium - a metall - for a few hundred years . We also have some canons exposed here in Cork, made from casted iron . They are still intact . And hundreds of years old .And so on . There are many proofen examples that cast metall does not rust easy.
Of course, a cheap Firebird boiler tank won't last that long . Let alone beeing exposed to agressive salt water or just only to hot sweet water . Because they are made from cheap steel . Flat rolled steel. Not from casted iron .
Keeping them intact with the aid of rust inhibitor is like fixing a wooden leg to a three leged race horse . It won't make them more efficient , just standing a bit longer . And wasting a bit longer 'till replacement .
Why are you happy with an inefficient boiler/vented system ? Close the loop and put pressure on it . Around 1.2 bar it should withstand in any case .
Ask your wife - or any one running a house hold : a pressurised cooker is much more efficient than a non pressurised , a lid on the pot safes money.
 
Re: >>Central Heating

Hello Folks,

This is a heating related query but there may be a more suitable place for it, sorry if I'm out of line here.

I will be starting a new house build shortly and an engineer has suggested going with a Wood Pellet Boiler to heat the house instead of a standard oil fired boiler. He recommended this due to Oil Costs, fossil fuels running out and emissions. I had heard of this but know no one with any experience of these boilers. The engineer himself only knew of one case of it but asked me to research and consider it. I've looked at the Irish Sustainable Energy page and it seems to me that the outlay for the boiler is very expensive (in comparison to an oil one) while the pellets are not so bad and it sounds like the system might work well. Does anyone have any experience of wood pellet boilers? and also how much did the system cost?
 
Re: >>Central Heating

Hi Sueellen,

Thank you for your reply, yep, the stoves are interesting but what I'm looking for info on is a boiler that would heat the whole house (rads, water etc) as opposed to just a stove in a room.
 
Re: >>pellet boilers

The boilers might be good , many are using them abroad. But hardly without subsidies .The storage of the pellets are another problem . Since the moisture content shouldn't be higher as 10 % . Any sort of cellulose stored in Ireland soon adapts to the eminent 18 - 20 % moisture and than you have the problem of using more fuel as anticipated .

Reason : Wet fuel does not give the same caloric value as dry fuel . Energy in the burning process is needed to a.) dry the cellulose and b.) to ignite it and c.) to blow the carbon dioxide up the chimney . If the smoke is to cold it will either ruin the chimney ( acetic sooth ) or it will not rise at all . And making your boiler a smoker suitable to smoke salmon or ham in the house.

So storing the fuel in a quantity large enough to bring you through a heating season is a problem . You need a dry room . And this room has to be heated as well . Otherwise you will have the moisture penetrating it and your pellets will start to rot before they are burnt . And heating a storage space for the fuel ( we are talking about several cubic meters ) is expensive . You have to insulate it . You need in practical terms another room added to your house .Heated, ventilated , serviced with electricity – and insured .

This cost causing problem is never highlighted by the sellers of this product here . ( Rhetorically asking : is your engineer in the business, how many percentages does she/he get - or is he/she just performing an " environmentally concerned " show ?) If your engineer is his money worth he should have told you about the entire costs . Abroad , in Austria , Switzerland, Germany , The Netherlands and all the Scandinavian countries no one would install these things with out the necessary price levelers ( so called subsidies ) to get rid of that financial problem . These subsidies are necessary to make these things economical.

And in the broader economical and political concept these subsidies are wasted money : Instead of taxing the fossil fuels according to the costs they cause additional costs are put on the back of the tax payers .

In northern countries where they use central heating boilers running on cellulose - be it timber logs/chips/pellets/peat - they have DRY winters ." Dry" means that you can dry your clothes outside . We don't have anything like that around Ireland or GB .

So my advice is to stay away from cellulose as a fuel in Ireland. It would burn, yes, but neither economical nor ecological . It would produce PAC's due to the moisture and plenty of fine dust particles due to the ash and sooth it blows out.

The latter is a general problem for all humane settlements , esp. nowadays with more and more people having breathing problems and becoming aware of the reasons.

Ask your engineer about the heating demand of the planned house . Insulation is the key of economic heating . If she/he is not able to present a fuel/heating cost comparison sheet than he is not able to plan the home you want.

In this sheet ALL alternatives must be shown . And the future developments must be taken into consideration - fuel prices as well as environmental standards . There are simple mathematic formulas available to the trade interested in the issue giving a tool to say " it will cost that much considering a price change ( inflation ) in that many years to come " . This has to be compared with the alternatives . In writing , words have no come back.

Check the SEI homepage for fuel comparison sheets . They are very slow there but it will give you a hint . And compare the results with the numbers from your engineer .
 
Re: >>Central Heating

PS.:
I did not put in any practical advice exept for the insulation : When going for a central heating system go for one that demands low running temperatures . That would be a floor heating system in combination ( or without ) a wall heating system . The larger the radiant surface the lower ( the more economical/ecological !) the running (flow temperature) can be .
 
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