Kevin Myres on working class mindsets.

Parents are vital.

When I was at primary school - I was written off by teachers.

This was not the fault of my parents or myself.

Secondary school was grand.

But without support from parents - I would have been lost.
 
I have long believed that education is key - but education comes from both state institutions and from parents. Parents are supposed to teach us values, while school gives us knowledge. Education is often spoken of as if it were just the acquisition of knowledge - but the application of this knowledge is even more important, and often ignored. It is not enough that we teach people how to earn a living, we must also strive to show the value of making a life. And, of course, the importance of respecting the lives of others.
 
Yes indeed, and the issue of parenting has been raised by some on this thread. The problem I see is that there is a vicious circle, which needs to be broken. Of course schools and teachers can only go so far, but it is one place where some difference can be made.
From teachers I have talked to I have gathered that pupils' behaviour is far more difficult to control in socially deprived areas than in "middle-class" areas, and that the more behavioural problems you have in a class, the smaller the class size needs to be for teachers to make a difference.


You are right, education alone will not make a difference, it is a general change in attitude that is needed. It is also simplistic for government to say that in order to create an "economy of the future" or the "knowledge economy", all that is needed is more educated people. The Soviet Union had a higher number of engineers and scientists than the west did, but this did not bring economic prosperity.
Education combined with economic freedom and opportunity are needed, but governments are doing everything they can to interfere in economic freedom and mortgage future opportunities.
 
I'm not sure if you are trying to evade or spin this issue by talking about 'perceptions'. This is not a matter of perception. The playing field is very, very unlevel.

As it happens, I agree with you that education is the solution. Perhaps the fact that we are down the bottom of the OECD league for spending on education might be part of that problem.
 
Chris said:
The problem I see is that there is a vicious circle, which needs to be broken.
Click to expand...

This vicious circle is being perpetuated, let's not forget, by adults who are making personal decisions regarding their own and their children's future. Granted, some may have had a bad upbringing themselves, but there's nothing stopping them from saying "How can I give my children what I didn't have?"
 
I see the following as 3 (true) stereotype upper middle class
obsessions/preocupations

Obsession with Private schools
Obsession with Private health care
Obsession with Accents

They seem to me to be the main every day definers of class
 
Yes, I'd go with that. And the fear that daughter will become emotionally embroiled with some untermensch either here or on holliers.
 
Nice one mtk, I'll run with that and add in another of their obsessions "We're always right"
 
Last edited:
Just thinking of some isolated observations on Kevin Myers which for some reason stuck in the back of my mind.

Years and years ago RTE television ran a sort of university quiz show. One of the mainstream universities met the Garda Training College in the final. Myers was the quiz master and introduced both teams. His body language and use of English welcomed the mainstream university and while introducing the Garda Training team practically told them they had no chance. The same occurred during the programme itself. One could not help seeing the expression in Myers face when the Garda Training College won.

Then there was the occasion of his dreadful newspaper article concerning the right of people to compete in the "Special" Olympics. Apparently, he was not comfortable with people with physical defects competing publicly and the sight of people with physical defects offended him. He apologised afterwards, but only after a groundswell of public opinion against him.

I agree with free speech, but with opinions around like those of Myers (he wasnt the only person ever to wait for a plumber, big deal) I have to think of the gullibility of some. All you got to do is look at some opinions on this thread before throwing your eyes to heaven.
 

The reason I chose the word perception is because there is essentially nothing stopping someone from a poor background joining various courses that will increase chances of higher wages and a better standard of living. We do indeed agree on the fact that primary and secondary education in socially deprived areas is completely failing. And this certainly contributes to the fact that less people go on to 3rd level education. But this does not mean that there is an inherent barrier to further education and opportunities set by the "unfairness" of capitalism. I believe it is mainly down to a general attitude and belief that the world is unfair and that poor people cannot overcome poverty.
 
Chris said:
The reason I chose the word perception is because there is essentially nothing stopping someone from a poor background joining various courses that will increase chances of higher wages and a better standard of living.
Click to expand...
It can a bit hard to do evening courses if you are already working 2 or 3 jobs to keep your head above water. Why do you think people from poor backgrounds generally have poor jobs and poor education?
 
Complainer said:
It can a bit hard to do evening courses if you are already working 2 or 3 jobs to keep your head above water. Why do you think people from poor backgrounds generally have poor jobs and poor education?
Click to expand...

I would imagine most people who are working 2 or 3 jobs already are probably on their way out of poverty, however long it takes them, given their hard working attitude. It's the people who prefer to draw the dole that need the attention.
 
mtk said:
I see the following as 3 (true) stereotype upper middle class
obsessions/preocupations

Obsession with Private schools
Obsession with Private health care
Obsession with Accents

They seem to me to be the main every day definers of class
Click to expand...

Obsession is a strong word but:

Private schools have a reputation for very good LC results - given how important education is, is this not a good option for parents who can afford it?

Private healthcare is a must in this country IMO. Again is this not a prudent decision for those who can afford it?

By the way, I've posted before that a solution to the 2 tier health system is to ban private health care (thus forcing everyone from B Cowen down though the public system - no preferential treatment). I'm sure it wouldn't take too long for the "important" people of this country to force the HSE into action. The same would hold true (to a lesser agree) for private schools. Until those days arise (which I doubt never will), I think for those who can afford it, private schools & private healthcare are good choices...I'm not saying it's fair!

Accents are neither here nor there.
 


+100, couldn't agree with you more Firefly. Sort these two things out and we will have a fairer society in a very short period of time.
 
lightswitch said:
+100, couldn't agree with you more Firefly. Sort these two things out and we will have a fairer society in a very short period of time.
Click to expand...

I like the national health insurance model. Those who can afford it pay for private healthcare and those that can't have it paid for by the state. That way all patients are the same as far as the hospital is concerned; all are a source of revenue. At the moment hospitals get a fixed budget from the state and so they see public patients as a drain on revenue. As long as that's the case there will always be a two tier health service. The added bonus is that private and public hospital would be in competition with each other which should, as long as it's set up correctly, improve standards and reduce costs.

Private education subsidised public education in that if all of the students in private schools were attending public schools the state would have to cover the full cost of their education. At the moment the state only covers part of it.
The same is true for private healthcare.
 
Private education subsidised public education in that if all of the students in private schools were attending public schools the state would have to cover the full cost of their education. At the moment the state only covers part of it.
Click to expand...

Are you sure about this? I though that private schools got the same capitation as any other school, and also have the additional revenue of fees.

Interestingly, I had a conversation with a couple of old college friends about private education recently. One thing that occurred to all of us was that there was a very high drop out rate among kids from private schools when we were in college. While private schools send a higher number of kids to college, it doesnt follow that all of these kids will do well in college. Very evident that some only got in due to extra attention they get in these schools and were genuinely not able for the course in college.

In addition to the above, there seemed to be another factor at work. Kids from rich backgrounds didnt seem to have the same hunger to suceed as kids from other backgrounds thus contributing to a higher failure/drop out rate. If you're from a rich background and daddy will sort you out for a job, there's no incentive to work in college.

Anecdotally, there was consensus among us that the kids who did best were the ones from middle income families who attended the good public schools. These kids seem to be a lot more aware of the power that getting a good education gives them. They also have more family support. As one of my friends put it - these people are within touching distance of a good life - can see the possibilities - but dont have the safety net of family weath to fall back on - so they are really motivated.
 
csirl said:
I though that private schools got the same capitation as any other school, and also have the additional revenue of fees.
Click to expand...
Absolutely true.

I mostly agree with Firefly. The State needs to stop subsidising private healthcare and private education. No more tax relief in health insurance, no more special tax relief to developers of private health clinics. No more tax relief on private school/college/doctor fees.

If people want to avail of these services, they are welcome to do so - provided they pay the full cost.
 
csirl said:
Are you sure about this? I though that private schools got the same capitation as any other school, and also have the additional revenue of fees.
Click to expand...

Yes, they get the same capitation grant but they don’t get funding for school buildings etc. There is considerable cost in running a school and the state funds a lot more than wages and capitation grants in public schools.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register