Kevin Myres on working class mindsets.



I take massive exception to this comment...

1 - Are you suggesting the "working class" don't go to university then?

2 - Are you suggesting the bubble was solely created from the top down?

3 - Are you suggesting that it wasn't a class-bridging national attitude of conspicuous consumption that lead to the bust?

4 - Are you suggesting the banks are the only ones responsible for the "financial mess"?
 
Yes indeed, state welfare has always and everywhere failed. I have not found one shred of evidence that welfare programs actually reduce poverty levels and numbers. And it is plainly due to the fact that welfare programs are a total discouragement to trying to better your situation. A few months ago I heard a single mother interviewed, who was living in free social housing and came out with €350 a week; that's more than someone on minimum wage eanrs. So why on earth would you go to work?


I think you make a very good point here. My father is a self employed business man who has spent a life time creating a medium sized manufacturing business. Like your dad, 12 hours days were/are normal. My dad's and granddad's generation would rather work for less money than accept a wellfare cheque. This was the right social attitude to have, not this sense of entitlement that has been created by ever increasing, disfunctional welfare programs.
 
A few months ago I heard a single mother interviewed, who was living in free social housing and came out with €350 a week; that's more than someone on minimum wage eanrs. So why on earth would you go to work?

I recently posted on AAM that one of my best friends receives €415 a week in social benefit (He has 3 children). He also receives other benefits.
He wants to work, but I reckon he would need a job with a salary of approx €40K to make it worth his while.
It is unlikely there will be too many jobs starting on that salary in the near future.
 
People refusing jobs that pay 25K.

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With much talk about bringing lower paid workers into the tax net, this issue needs to be overcome first - otherwise those on lower pay may just opt to go on the dole and those on the dole will be dis-incentivised to go back working.
 

no, I'm a working class guy who went to uni myself. What I am saying is that to me, Myers has an problem with what he perceives to be the feckless attitude of the working class when the reality is, the attitude is no different in many people who went to Blackrock or some other well to do fee paying school.

Reality is that many people in Ireland, regardless of their background have a careless, couldn't give a damm attitude about them.
 

Excellent points.
 
Yes indeed, state welfare has always and everywhere failed. I have not found one shred of evidence that welfare programs actually reduce poverty levels and numbers.
I suppose this depends on your measure of success/failure. If your sole measure of success is 'get people back to work' (usually in minimum wage roles with little or no effective employment rights), then perhaps they have failed. If your measure of success include stopping people from being hungry and providing families with basic light and heat that would otherwise be not there, then perhaps they could be considered to be more successful.
 
People refusing jobs that pay 25K.

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"I met 25 representatives of small business there, and there are real concerns that jobs being offered at €25,000 a year are not being taken up, and Eamon O'Cuiv and myself are sitting down and looking at how we can achieve this," he said.
Well that's great, they're going to sit down and figure it out. Is this guy, and his colleagues, so inept and ignorant of what's going on that he is taken by surprise about this?!?

Now there is some optimism, actually it isn't optimism; he claims that it is certain that we will not only have growth, but 3% growth. Do people actually still believe a word that these prevaricators come out with?
 

Actually neither. My claim is that welfare programs have not reduced the amount of people living below the poverty line, because the rules of welfare programs are such, that as soon as you work you lose your entitlements. And in many cases work will pay less than welfare, so there is no incentive to work. Unless you have a job you will not learn new skills or even be able to get a carreer off the ground.
 
Actually neither. My claim is that welfare programs have not reduced the amount of people living below the poverty line, because the rules of welfare programs are such, that as soon as you work you lose your entitlements.
That's just not true. You get to keep your medical card for two years. You will still qualify for FIS as long as you are in a low-paid job.

Unless you have a job you will not learn new skills or even be able to get a carreer off the ground.
I don't come across many people who 'learn new skills' in their minimum wage jobs or manage to build a career from minimum wage jobs. The great 'American dream' is a myth, in America and in Ireland.
 
I don't come across many people who 'learn new skills' in their minimum wage jobs or manage to build a career from minimum wage jobs. The great 'American dream' is a myth, in America and in Ireland.

IMO, if you are working a minimum wage where the dole is not available, you have a greater incentive to improve your lot than someone who is getting the dole for nothing.
 
That's just not true. You get to keep your medical card for two years. You will still qualify for FIS as long as you are in a low-paid job.
What about all those people with no kids, what happens to them? And the FIS provides a disincentive to earn above the threshold for family sizes, and usually only paid for 1 year.

I don't come across many people who 'learn new skills' in their minimum wage jobs or manage to build a career from minimum wage jobs. The great 'American dream' is a myth, in America and in Ireland.
Not every unemployed person, but there are plenty of people from so-called disadvantaged backgrounds, who have little or no education and skills. Unless they take any kind of job or undergo some training courses, they will not learn any/new skills. And if you are in a low or minimum wage job, you have an added incentive to increase your skills to get a better job.
The term "American Dream" is a total cliché. But it is not true that people cannot overcome any disadvantage and make good careers or businesses out of nothing. What people just don't realise is that it is not something that just falls in your lap.
When I finished school I had just enough money to share a tiny apartment while working a minimum wage job. The only skill I had was being fluent in German which allowed me to take a call center job at slightly above minimum wage. I learnt some basic skills and invested some money in courses before I went on to do a degree by night. I'm far from being the "American Dream" millionaire, but none of this would have happened unless I had put in the work, time and money, all of which was my own. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I got my work ethic from my father, so accepting welfare was not an option I was willing to take. That left me with only one option, which was to work and find a way to build a career.
My father and brother set up businesses out of nothing. It's damn hard work but this is the only way. If you take away the incentive to even try and improve your situation then you end up in the situation where thousands of people get stuck in the "poverty trap".
 
I don't come across many people who 'learn new skills' in their minimum wage jobs or manage to build a career from minimum wage jobs. The great 'American dream' is a myth, in America and in Ireland.

I've met people who started off on very low paid jobs (I started off on a very low paid job) and did well.
What evidence do you have that the American dream (upward mobility through hard work and smarts) is a myth?
BTW, I support welfare programmes, even for the long term unemployed, but they should be skewed toward helping children get a better education, not giving cash to the parents and they should never leave people better off than they would be on a minimum wage job.
 
What happens after 2 years?

You end up in the same position as many low and middle earners - your family get sick and you are unable to afford doctors fees and drug fees for anything but the most serious of conditions. If you are unlucky enough to have a serious condition, you might die while waiting for treatment. But to be honest, you would probably have died on the medical card too.

What about all those people with no kids, what happens to them?
I didn't mention kids, so I'm not sure I get your question about kids?

And the FIS provides a disincentive to earn above the threshold for family sizes, and usually only paid for 1 year.
Not true. FIS has no poverty trap. If you earn more, you do indeed lose the equivalent FIS, but you don't end up worse off. If you do have the opportunity to earn more (through overtime or promotion or whatever), there is no disincentive to progressing.

FIS is not limited to one year. If you still qualify after one year, you have to reapply. http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW22/Pages/10HowlongdoestheFISpaymentlast.aspx


It is of course possible for people of exceptional talent and commitment to develop and build a career or a business from modest roots. But most people don't have that talent, and get frustrated at the lack of fairness and equity in the system. They look around them and see those who get to move up the ranks because Daddy owns the business, or because they went to the 'right' school or they play on the 'right' rugby team. We are a long, long way off a fair and balanced system where talent and commitment bring fair rewards. But even if we had this perfect system with equal opportunities for everyone to develop, this still misses the point. Focus on the job or the post, not the person. In our current environment and system, no cleaner or kitchen hand is going to earn a living wage. So when one kitchen hand gets promoted, the problem just moves to his or her replacement - the new person getting the crappy wage.
 
I think that Mayers made some valid points but the layer of society his comments cover is a lot larger than the working class alone.

For example, there is a lot of self-depreciation and self-defeatism amoung those families whose attitude and setting a poor example for their own young has lead them into perpetual poverty and dependance on the state. Just think of communities where every other 17 year old girl is pushing a pram, claiming the lone parent allowance (or whatever it's called) and is hoping to get a council house soon.

Some middle-class workers are just as unpunctual, lazy and feckless as Myres' working class. I wonder if he has ever been seen by a GP or a dentist at the exact time of his appointment? Or, has he ever been ill advised by his accountant or has his solicitor ever 'forgotten' to get back to him?

I spoke to a building contractor a while ago and he insists that it's the land owners, estate agents, banks and tradesmen who drove the house prices up and up for years. He was saying that in thouse tough times for the industry, he has to micro-manage every sub-contractor he has otherwise they'd be hanging around all day (if they turned up for the job), not doing much or doing stuff wrong so they get a few days extra work (for which they'd demand to be paid) fixing their own mistakes. He told me that it's a shame that a lot of cowboy tradesmen were able to get away with murder during the good times and that the attitude hasn't changed much since. I believe that he's been in business for 20-odd years. You'd think that people would be keen to do any work they can get, especially now when carpenters / plumbers / electricians / ... are dime a dozen.