Is the wording on my father's Will correct/sufficient?

F

faolteam

Registered User
Messages
198
My father passed away last week and left a will, I presume i do have to take out Letter of Administration and the probate so that the Will can be verified as valid and All legal, financial and tax matters are in order.

this is a brief wording off the will :
I appoint my son Fred and son Peter to be Executors off the will and i appoint my five children the aforesaid Fred and Peter , Carol , Olivia, and Noel as Trustees and i appoint them to be Trustees for the Purpose of the Settled land Acts 1882 TO 1890.

I Give devise bequeath all my real and personal estate whatsoever and wheresovever not hereby any codicil hereto otherwise specifically disposed of after payment of my debts, funeral and testamentary expenses unto my five children in equal shares provided that my dwelling house shall not be sold or otherwise disposed of unless each and all aforesaid children shall be in agreement.

In the event of any of my children being deceased prior to my Death then i DIRECT that My Trustees shall hold there share in Trust for such Children of theirs as may be living at the date of my Death.
 
Correct and sufficient for what?

I doubt you are looking at the Small estate process, so yes you will need to apply for Grant of Probate.

IANAL
 
Firstly, sorry for your loss.

Where there is a valid will, the Executors (or one of them) may extract a “Grant of Probate”. This then allows them to deal with the estate, pay the debts and distribute the assets.

It is where there is no valid will that an Administrator (so entitled to act usually by virtue of their relationship to the deceased) will extract a Grant of Letters of Administration.

Wills must be clearly written so as to enable the Executor to carry out the wishes of the deceased. There are other formalities that must be followed such as the will being appropriately witnessed, signed and dated etc.

The wording you have typed above contains several typos which if contained in the will may be problematic in terms of deducing the intention of the Testator. In particular, the following sentence is problematic:

“I Give devise bequeath all my real and personal estate whatsoever and wheresovever not hereby any codicil hereto otherwise specifically disposed of after payment of my debts, funeral and testamentary expenses…”. It does not make grammatical sense. I suspect though that you may have misquoted the will.

If not, and the wording as typed here appears in the will, then this could affect the validity of that clause in the will if not the will itself.
 
Johnno75 said:
Firstly, sorry for your loss.

Where there is a valid will, the Executors (or one of them) may extract a “Grant of Probate”. This then allows them to deal with the estate, pay the debts and distribute the assets.

It is where there is no valid will that an Administrator (so entitled to act usually by virtue of their relationship to the deceased) will extract a Grant of Letters of Administration.

Wills must be clearly written so as to enable the Executor to carry out the wishes of the deceased. There are other formalities that must be followed such as the will being appropriately witnessed, signed and dated etc.

The wording you have typed above contains several typos which if contained in the will may be problematic in terms of deducing the intention of the Testator. In particular, the following sentence is problematic:

“I Give devise bequeath all my real and personal estate whatsoever and wheresovever not hereby any codicil hereto otherwise specifically disposed of after payment of my debts, funeral and testamentary expenses…”. It does not make grammatical sense. I suspect though that you may have misquoted the will.

If not, and the wording as typed here appears in the will, then this could affect the validity of that clause in the will if not the will itself.
Click to expand...
unfortunately that is the way it is written,
as one of the beneficaries, how would this fair out if i made an offer for the house is this possible of course with all them agreeing to it .
 
Really sorry for your loss faolteam. If you are in any doubt about what the will means then consult a solicitor.

You and your brother Peter are executors. One of you should take on the main job of this as it could take twice as long if you both need to be together to do each thing. Decide if you want to progress yourself or if you want to use a solicitor.

Then start to gather all the paperwork needed. The citizens advice has a good list of items to do after a death.

One of your main jobs is to agree if the house is to be sold or not. So get everyone together and find out people’s wishes and get their decision in writing. If you are all agreed to sell then progress that when probate is granted. If you are not agreed then decide if you are going to rent it out or how you are going to pay the upkeep bills.

If you wish to purchase the house then I would recommend you get 2/3 independent valuations and take an average. Say it is valued at an average of €250K then offer your siblings €50K each. It is up to them to say yes or no. If they say no, then put it up for sale on the open market and bid for it. All the bills should be paid out of the estate etc.

But there are a lot of steps to be taken first, and if you are concerned about your ability then use a solicitor.
 
You really need to see a Solicitor on this. The will on its face lacks certainty in certain respects.

If the will is valid, then if all beneficiaries are agreeable to you buying it at market value, then there shouldn’t be a problem.

However, if the will’s validity is uncertain, then there may be a wider pool of potential beneficiaries - ie if the will is invalid, then the estate passes under the rules of intestacy to the next of kin. This may include others aside from those named in the will.
 
Johnno75 said:
The wording you have typed above contains several typos which if contained in the will may be problematic in terms of deducing the intention of the Testator. In particular, the following sentence is problematic:

“I Give devise bequeath all my real and personal estate whatsoever and wheresovever not hereby any codicil hereto otherwise specifically disposed of after payment of my debts, funeral and testamentary expenses…”. It does not make grammatical sense. I suspect though that you may have misquoted the will.

If not, and the wording as typed here appears in the will, then this could affect the validity of that clause in the will if not the will itself.
Click to expand...
This bit also seems ambiguous:
faolteam said:
In the event of any of my children being deceased prior to my Death then i DIRECT that My Trustees shall hold there share in Trust for such Children of theirs as may be living at the date of my Death.
Click to expand...
You almost certainly need legal advice on this as others have suggested.
 
Johnno75 said:
You really need to see a Solicitor on this. The will on its face lacks certainty in certain respects.

If the will is valid, then if all beneficiaries are agreeable to you buying it at market value, then there shouldn’t be a problem.

However, if the will’s validity is uncertain, then there may be a wider pool of potential beneficiaries - ie if the will is invalid, then the estate passes under the rules of intestacy to the next of kin. This may include others aside from those named in the will.
Click to expand...
interesting
 
Johnno There is two siblings living at home, single, no children , one is on social welfare and myself , can i make an offer to three of the others and buy them out , leaving 2 siblings obviously i would have a bigger share.
 
Last edited:
You can propose it to your siblings, see what they say. You can just refuse to agree to sell, continue to own 20% of it and pay your siblings rent etc. if you can afford it and your siblings agree the cleanest simplest solution is to buy it 100%. All the other ideas tangle you up with family members which can lead to complications
 
Clamball said:
You can propose it to your siblings, see what they say. You can just refuse to agree to sell, continue to own 20% of it and pay your siblings rent etc. if you can afford it and your siblings agree the cleanest simplest solution is to buy it 100%. All the other ideas tangle you up with family members which can lead to complications
Click to expand...
thanks can you make an offer or does it have to be the market value with revennue , at the end of the day im just trying to sort this mess out really, i dont have any children , the other sibling will probably want to stay for a while i certainly wouldnt throw her out and at the end of the day the other siblings who do have kids will probably end up with the house as i dont have kids and really there my next of kin
 
Last edited:
Hi faolteam

It sounds as if that was drafted by a solicitor.

Unless your father was a bar stool lawyer?

Given that others here see defects in the wording, you probably should get the assistance of another solicitor to review it.

Brendan
 
You can inherit €335K without paying any CAT so you will not owe anything to revenue if you are below this lifetime limit. If you are proposing to buy three siblings out how do you know what a fair market value is? Why should they receive less from you than if they sold in an open market.

So for example the house is valued at €250K but you offer €200K. Your sibling would get €50K at market value but only €40K if they took your offer. Ignoring all other assets they have inherited €40K each from your parent. You however have inherited €80K, your 20% part of €250K and €10K from each siblings portion that you did not pay them. It is hardly fair that you receive an inheritance worth €80K when your siblings get €40K. The only way to know the true value of your inheritance is to get it professionally valued.

But you are getting way ahead of yourself, probate needs to be organised and granted first.

You should get a solicitor to organise all of this for you.
 
Clamball said:
You can inherit €335K without paying any CAT so you will not owe anything to revenue if you are below this lifetime limit. If you are proposing to buy three siblings out how do you know what a fair market value is? Why should they receive less from you than if they sold in an open market.

So for example the house is valued at €250K but you offer €200K. Your sibling would get €50K at market value but only €40K if they took your offer. Ignoring all other assets they have inherited €40K each from your parent. You however have inherited €80K, your 20% part of €250K and €10K from each siblings portion that you did not pay them. It is hardly fair that you receive an inheritance worth €80K when your siblings get €40K. The only way to know the true value of your inheritance is to get it professionally valued.

But you are getting way ahead of yourself, probate needs to be organised and granted first.

You should get a solicitor to organise all of this for you.
Click to expand...
No your probably right , just thinking of all the questions to ask solicitor , but at present my plan is to Will it back to all 4 of them if i consider buying it
cheers
 
Last edited:
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi faolteam

It sounds as if that was drafted by a solicitor.

Unless your father was a bar stool lawyer?

Given that others here see defects in the wording, you probably should get the assistance of another solicitor to review it.

Brendan
Click to expand...
No wasnt a bar stool lawyer but when i went to ring the solictor i found out there company is gone and he is doing 18 months for fraud, Dad Never had much luck with solicitors even his previous one
 
faolteam said:
thanks can you make an offer or does it have to be the market value with revennue , at the end of the day im just trying to sort this mess out really, i dont have any children , the other sibling will probably want to stay for a while i certainly wouldnt throw her out and at the end of the day the other siblings who do have kids will probably end up with the house as i dont have kids and really there my next of kin
Click to expand...

Hi faolteam,

Sorry to hear of your father's death.

Perhaps I'm missing something here but I fail to see why you have to sort out 'this mess' when there are 5 of you and you don't appear to be benefiting by purchasing the house.

Realistically where would your sister be able to go if she is only on social welfare and would not inherit enough to purchase her own house. Rents are so high these days that she would probably not be able to afford to move. You say you would not throw her out so long term you are taking on her care (providing a home) which is a big responsibility.

Even if you do go to the bother of purchasing it your family will still see it as the family home especially if the two of you are still living there and nothing will change.

So to me it seems a lot of bother for you and no benefit especially if you intend willing it back to them.

faolteam said:
provided that my dwelling house shall not be sold or otherwise disposed of unless each and all aforesaid children shall be in agreement.
Click to expand...

This wording makes me think the two of you stay where you are as the other three can't sell without your agreement and this is what your father intended.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top