Is an "upmarket" apartment a risky buy?

quickquestio

Registered User
Messages
31
my parents are buying considering buying a 2 bed high end appartment
as their home.

location castleknock
appartment due to be completed in a years time
they want to buy off the plans when they are first available

Points:
I think that the appartment market will be the first to see the downturn
in the property market.
I think that the development might not sell that well and the developer
will have to drop the price to sell them.

Questions:
Will high end appartments be less \ more at risk to a property downturn?
Should they wait until the development is up and running before buying
rather than off the plans?
 
Re: upmarket appartment risk

Does the market value of the property really matter than much if it will be their home?
 
market value not important as its their home until death

but,

if they buy from plans, i think that the prices will drop by
the time the development is completed.

my main question is should they wait until the end
rather than the start to buy the appartment?
 
There's no easy answer. It could work both ways. If they really want this particular property then it would seem sensible to secure one now.
 
the appartments are the same price as the 4/5 bedrooms houses in the
area 800-1200.

many of parents friends who were planning on buying one are not
because they would only be making a move with out gaining any cash
when they sell their houses.

the price rules out most investors,young familes,singles so its only a small
target market.

I personally think, that the appartments are too expensive, they will
have trouble selling them at the price and have to significently drop them.

The housing market in castleknock is already seeing signs of a slowdown,
i know of several houses not sold and taken off the market and several
taking over a year to sell.

They are building 2500 homes in the race course, which will double the
size of castleknock and further effect the house prices.

Do developers release phase one and then adjust their prices
depending on how well it sold?
 
They should check out the annual management charge since, for an "upmarket" apartment development, it is likely to be sizeable. Do they already own a house? If so why are they considering this move if they don't benefit from any surplus CGT free gain on their old PPR?
 
clubman

there selling their house to purchase appartment, making a small
sum of cash.

reason for buying, they're retiring in a few years time and want to
down size from a house to an appartment.

management charge should be offset by reduction in running a house
compared to running an appartment.

they live close to the development so they are in the same area just
moving from a house to appartment.

I think that the appartments are overpriced and that it would be
foolish to buy off the plans.
Heres my reasons\opinion
1:
Appartments are the first to move in a housing downturn
- due to large number of new appartments available
- a lot of bad quality \ old appartments around
- appartments not suitable\liked for\by all sectors of buyers
2:
These appartments are overpriced
- at least double the price of other same sized appartments in castleknock
3:
Developers will be forced to drop prices to sell appartments.
- based on above
so buying off plans is bad move.

My idea is for them to sell their house now and sit on the cash
and see how the price of the development goes and buy when
(i think) the prices drop.
 
Would they consider renting an apartment for 6 months or so (while renting out their own house) just to be 100% sure that they are happy with the apartment living experience. It's a big change for them to find themselves with no garden, no shed and less room all round.

Once their house isn't rented for more than 12 months, they'll have no capital gains tax when they sell, though they will be liable for income tax on their rental income.
 
quickquestio said:
My idea is for them to sell their house now and sit on the cash and see how the price of the development goes and buy when
(i think) the prices drop.
This could be risky - if prices rise and they can't afford the apartment then they could be left without a home of their own or the ability to buy the type of property that they want in the area in which they live. And where would they live in the meantime? Apart from the financial issues involved which I'm not sure have been fully thought through there are other more intangible lifestyle issues such as those mentioned by Rainyday.
 
I fully agree with ClubMan and RainyDay. Given that your parents are on the eve of retirement, moving into another phase of life in which security and manageability is of prime importance it would seem retrograde for them to become involved in speculation or a series of dislocations. The most traumatic life-event after the death of a spouse or child or the breakup of a long-term relationship is moving house! If your parents have thought out their needs and preferences, know the area, like the projected apartments, carefully examined their finances this sounds like sensible forward planning. Adding in considerations about timing the market or speculation muddies the water and might not be reassuring at a stage when they are embarking on an important rite de passage. There's more to life than bricks and mortar - much much more!
 
An off plan purchase of an apartment in Dublin is a very risky buy, rental yields confirm this. Why don't your folks wait til the things are built if the market continues up their PPP will have increased in value also.
 
I'm not sure how rental yields are relevant to this situation which would be a PPR rather than rental investment purchase. Can you explain?
 
OK! To be more direct the risk to be considered is the wellbeing of the about-to-retire couple in question who are trying to make decisions for what might be the remaining 25 years of their life (not an inconsiderable length of time if you have a family home and garden that you can't manage because of frailty or illhealth, or in a location which leaves you isolated from friends and family). The only consideration should be their best interests and wellbeing not money!!!!

It does sound as if this couple are very anxious to get a direction sorted out now.

How 'risky' is it to 'buy off the plans' (hundreds of thousands of people do this!!!) when (a) they are getting the pick of a prestigious development of 'upmarket' apartments in an area they know, know their neighbours, is accessible to the city and (presumably) family and friends and (b) have thought about their needs at this stage of life, and their preferences and can fund it without strain.

The only question all this should raise for you in your efforts to support your parents in their planning is whether you feel there is undue haste in selling their house and committing to their apartment. However 18 months (? time to completion of Phase 1) does not seem excessive timescale for such a big decision.

'The market' has actually nothing to do with it unless you have some evidence that these apartments are not actually 'upmarket' and a bit special but are actually crap. Isn't this something you judge from the specification and plans rather than from feelings of apprehension?

They have the right to decide what they do with their present home and where they want to live - regardless of the personal views of a family member.
 
I agree with a lot of that. While I do believe that people need to look on their PPR as an investment as well as the place in which they live I do believe that there are more intangible issues that need to be considered compared to a more straightforward/obvious investment and that one's PPR cannot be viewed in purely financial terms only.
 


There is a risk is they will overpay and so much of their money (about a million!?!?!) gets locked into a two bedroom apartment that they could
otherwise use in their own "persuit of happiness" e.g health and well-being, holiday cruises, helping children/grandchildren with education etc.

In addition there is a risk that the higher density lifestyle associated with apartments may not be to their liking - it's not
for everyone. Especially those who have become accustomed over time to the space and freedom of a larger semi or detached house. Houses can be "granny-proofed" to a amazing degree these days.

Now having said that my selfish side comes out when I see so many large houses around Dublin that are occupied by just one or two old folks.
Maybe it's not such a bad idea to shift the old fogeys out into flats (er, I mean luxury apartments) and release some housing stock onto the market.
 
It is a tricky one as there are so many issues implicit in the question. Of course it is anxiety-provoking for the potential inheritors if parents appear to be making moves with will diminish the estate after their deaths. I work professionally with post-retirement adults and these situations (and the family arguments about them!) constitute a frequent source of conflict and stress. Because a couple are 65 - 70 years old doesn't mean they have lost either their wits or their rights and it is galling for them to be treated as if they have.

So the first aspect of this issue is for OP to accept that the parents should and will do what they prefer and have decided in terms of swapping house for apartment (for the reasons mentioned - less work, more security!)

The second aspect is an objection to parents' sale of their house and purchasing their apartment 'off the plans' with the proceeds in the realistic timeframe set (1 year to completion, which gives them 1 year to sell the house and purchase the apartment).

Your objections appear to be two: (1) that they are making a bad move which will lower the equity in their home (apartment will lose value) but you comment this is not important as it will be their home 'for the rest of their days'; (2) that they are buying an overpriced apartment (that they will lose money); (3) that apartments are a weak investment in a softening housing market (that they will lose money).

But..............it's their decision, their home, their money! If they are blithly unaware of the financial peril you fear they are in have you informed them and what was the response? If they are aware of the peril you fear they are in and they still wish to sell their house and buy an apartment there is absolutely nothing you can do about it!

As ClubMan and RainyDay have posted, there are other considerations, one of which is that we all assume we will outlive our parents and will benefit (or not) from their financial achievements. That isn't by any means always the case.
 
I find it ridiculous to state that off the plans purchasing could work out more expensive than the end of build price. During my time, anyone I know (including myself) who has bought off the plans has made significant increases in their property value and has secured a more esteemed or better located apartment than they would have had chasing at the tail end of the build. I myself in one year gained a quick 25% increase in the value of one purchase on a 1-bed apartment in Dublin before CGT.



Its all about location and many people have bought houses and apartments in very bad areas, this alone will leave them susceptible to a price drop all though I believe that this crash, which has been banded about for the last 10 years will not and never hit certain areas of Dublin. What will reduce house or apartment prices here will be location, bad infrastructure, access to schools etc and ratio of tenant to landlord e.g. City Centre, Blanchardstown. All these new estates are untested areas and can quickly turn sour (Mulhuddart, Ongar, Tyrellstown) for the purchasers or turn into a nice little investment (Milltown, Clontarf, Sutton). Take the Georgian Village in Castleknock, houses there go for circa 2 million but you could buy a 3 Bed property near Castleknock, just off the Navan Road there for 450K. But it is not Castleknock and it’s not the Georgian village.

People today have been too gullible listening to estate agents and buying into their marketed perceptions of certain areas in Dublin

My motto when buying a property was to buy big, upmarket, don’t go for the ordinary if you can afford it. Pick an excellent location first, then get the best property you can for your money in that area (penthouse, top floor). I know back in the 80's people in Malahide were buying overpriced property, in relation to your normal Joe bloggs 3 bed semi, terraced. But now they wish they bought two, the Castle knock and Old Phoenix Park Racecourse development is a bit worrying as their seems to be a very high density, although to be honest if you seen some of the so- called three bedroom rubbish they are throwing up today you would not feel to claustrophobic in an apartment. When you buy a new house now in Dublin it seems that punters are forgoing car park spaces, insulated walls, any garden bigger that a matchbox and the sight of all you bloody neighbours peering into you back yard and front door. Not pleasant.

If the development is pricey, it will keep out the riff raff, low-end purchasers, tenants etc.and if the design and structure are appealing it should, at sometime in the future, become a very tasty investment, but I would worry about the amount of units. In time and somewhat apparent now, small apartment developments will be going for a premium in Dublin, anything under 40 units.

People find it more secure, easier to create a community and complaints or issues get resolved much quicker. The developments tend to be well though out both with design and location.
 
90210 said:
Take the Georgian Village in Castleknock, houses there go for circa 2 million but you could buy a 3 Bed property near Castleknock, just off the Navan Road there for 450K. But it is not Castleknock and it’s not the Georgian village.

Are you saying that the 450k houses are a worse investment/purchase? I don't fully know that area, but no house could be reliably worth 2 million!



How does an off-the-plan buyer know that the construction will be better that the new 3-bed rubbish?

90210 said:
In time and somewhat apparent now, small apartment developments will be going for a premium in Dublin, anything under 40 units.

What developmets are apparent now?

LK
 
here's a link to the development
www.pleanala.ie/REP/204/R204961.DOC

my parents are 100% financially secure, plenty of cash & safe investments & 4 pensions.
so i'm not worried about their financial future.

I just don't want them to loose money unnecessarily by buying the
apartment at the wrong time.

its no longer about buying the apartment, this is definitely happening,
its now about when to buy; off plans or later.