Is a dedicated Transport Police Force needed?

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RonanC

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This question follows on from the thread "Are Gardai entitled to free public transport?"

Do we need a dedicated Transport Poilce in our main cities?

I believe we do, and I cant understand how we have managed so far with a public transport system that has no visible security or policing of it.
 
Dont think so. Our public transport network is too underdeveloped to warrant one.
 
The big thing is the low density of the railway. The UK has a transport police force but there are loads of train lines going in all directions.

If you were to consider the line to Sigo and make one unit responsible for that entire route, where would you base them? It would take too many people to be able to police the entire route and be on call to get there quickly in case of an emergency.

Better to rely on the local Gardai.
 
csirl said:
Dont think so. Our public transport network is too underdeveloped to warrant one.
Click to expand...

What about in our cities? Surely there are enough buses, trams and trains in Dublin to warrant a police presence - the local Gardai certainly can't or won't respond in time to most incidents that happen and, with the exception of parts of the red Luas line, don't have the staff to do full time patrols.
 
Ok this thread needs some figures.

LUAS - 27.4m passenger journeys in 2008
DART and commuter rail - 33m passenger joruneys in 2008
Dublin Bus - 150m passenger joruneys in 2008

That is an awful lot of Public Transport usage in and around our capital city. People do not feel safe using public transport in this city and thats evident by reading the thread about Gardai using public transport for free.

If there was a dedicated Public Transport Police force who were regular Gardai but concentrated their duties to all forms of public transport (including patrolling train stations and LUAS platforms) the city (and other cities in ireland) would take a step towards being safer.
 
RonanC said:
Ok this thread needs some figures ...
Click to expand...
Agreed, so -

  1. What percentage of serious crime occurs in and around public transport depots / venues / vehicles?
  2. What is the cost of these crimes? (including "fare dodging" and damage to infrastructure)
  3. How does this break out on a city by city basis?
  4. What percentage of public transport crime would a dedicated Transport Police force prevent / solve over and above current policing methods?
Once these figures are available the powers that be will be in a position to make appropriate decisions.
 
@ mathepac, I'm good but dont think i'm that good with finding all that info.. but i'll give some examples of what goes on in Dublin as an example and maybe others can post up some more and maybe answer some of your questions.

LUAS -
* http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=8548
* http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0123/assault.html
*

DART -
* [broken link removed]
* [broken link removed]
* [broken link removed]
* old story [broken link removed]


Dublin Bus -
* [broken link removed]
* [broken link removed]
* http://www.independent.ie/breaking-...over-attack-on-dublin-bus-driver-1198736.html
* http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0111/bus.html


The fact is that there is no current policing method in place in train stations, bus stations and on board vehicles apart from a handful of private security that have no powers of arrest or detention and have no physical presence compared to what uniformed Gardai have.
 
I think that the only way it could work would be to have a police service separate to the Gardai but with the same powers and which is funded by the transport companies.

If they were part of the Gardai, they would be siphoned off to supplement regular policing so having a separate unit would ensure they are used for public transport use only.

And if they were funded by the railway company they could get involved with the likes of checking tickets without people complaining about tax payers' money being used for trivial matters.

But I don't think that this model could work beyond the cities given the low density of public transport in Ireland.

The British Transport Police model seems to work well in London but the UK police are used to having more than one force.
 
terrontress said:
I think that the only way it could work would be to have a police service separate to the Gardai but with the same powers and which is funded by the transport companies.

If they were part of the Gardai, they would be siphoned off to supplement regular policing so having a separate unit would ensure they are used for public transport use only.

And if they were funded by the railway company they could get involved with the likes of checking tickets without people complaining about tax payers' money being used for trivial matters.

But I don't think that this model could work beyond the cities given the low density of public transport in Ireland.

The British Transport Police model seems to work well in London but the UK police are used to having more than one force.
Click to expand...


So essential what the best option would be is a private company that employs law enforcement staff, maybe something like the Canadian Pacific Railway Police Service?

The Railway covers the cost, employs the staff but the rights are the same as regular police officers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Railway_Police_Service

I think it’s time anyhow to look at our out-dated An Garda Síochána and bring them into the current century with modern equipment, a better pay system for individuals that are willing to work and better strength to tackle the modern crime from bank fraud over serious crime to immigration. Maybe that includes having more than one police force with responsibilities that are at their core so that they can specialize.

And before you shout, yes I know I’m against the current Justice Bill which in my opinion is Zanu FF move to bring us more towards a totalitarian state. If we had a modern police service with balanced rights which had the motivation, expertise and tools to go after the serious crime than we not have a need for non-jury trials, expert opinion that counts as evidence and secret hearings.
 
jaybird said:
I don't think its warranted to be honest. I don't see that a private company would be in any better position to respond than gardai. If we don't have enough officers to respond in good time to all calls, then we need more guards, not a quasi-police force.
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Perhaps a better suggestion would be regular Gardai but limited to a specific role - transport police with the transport companies making a contribution to the costs of that department.
 
jaybird said:
A private company whose employees have the same rights as gardai? That makes me very very uncomfortable as an idea!

I don't think its warranted to be honest. I don't see that a private company would be in any better position to respond than gardai. If we don't have enough officers to respond in good time to all calls, then we need more guards, not a quasi-police force.
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I wouldn't call it a private company, just as CIE is not a private company. It would be given its powers by the state and the police officers.

It would only have the same rights as Gardai in certain circumstances.

In Dublin there is already the Gardai, Dublin Airport Police, Dublin Harbour Police and the Military Police, each of which have powers greater than private security in their own spheres of operation and none of which could be described as a private company.
 
markpb said:
Perhaps a better suggestion would be regular Gardai but limited to a specific role - transport police with the transport companies making a contribution to the costs of that department.
Click to expand...

No, because you can be sure that those Gardai will be dragged off to do something else as the need arises. It is already apparent that protecting the public transport travelling public is not a priority.

As said, if they were funded by the railways or CIE, these new transport Police could take on a greater responsibility for checking of tickets hence reducing fare evasion and reducing the cost to the consumer.

How many times have you seen Traffic Corps Garda cars dealing with public order at pub chucking out time. Quite often.

Something is needed which is for public transport only and not even have a link to An Garda Siochana.
 
terrontress said:
I wouldn't call it a private company, just as CIE is not a private company. It would be given its powers by the state and the police officers.

It would only have the same rights as Gardai in certain circumstances.

In Dublin there is already the Gardai, Dublin Airport Police, Dublin Harbour Police and the Military Police, each of which have powers greater than private security in their own spheres of operation and none of which could be described as a private company.
Click to expand...

Which is exactly the point I made with the Canadian Pacific Railway Police Service. While it’s a private company that is funding the bill for protecting their own infrastructure and passengers, they employ law enforcement officers that are trained in police academies and that have rights which are that of a peace officer within the scope of protecting infrastructure and passengers of the railway.

Why should the tax payer always fund everything? I find it only right that the transport companies pay for protecting their infrastructure and passengers. If we want to do this in a split, i.e. it’s specialized Gardai dedicated to the public transport under the governance of our goverment and the companies contribute to their cost than fine by me, let’s discuss it.

If this model works in Canada (which has a far better police and justice system than us here) why can’t it work here? The point of the Dublin Airport Police (limited to the Aerodrome) is a good one.

We need a modern police service that is able to cope with our changed security requirements and the revenue problems that our state is facing.
 
jaybird said:
Good point, but with the likes of Dublin Bus letting drivers go, putting new buses in garages and cutting routes (more of which coming soon BTW), I don't imagine they'd be contributing much to a transport police force.

And I can't help feeling its just not warranted. And I speak as the wife of a Bus driver who works night shifts and so on.
Click to expand...

As a frequent user of the DART in the late evening hours I wish there was a transport police rather than the “rent a cop” folks that CIE is using for security. Trying to look intimidating with their outfits and behaviour is not what I think we need.

What I need is a service that not only gives me a feeling of security but at the same time can deal with the people that for sure have not paid for their late night fare.

All of this is a larger problem of what this country has become. Our guardians of the peace are just not able to cope with the problems that we have created by the celtic tiger and the social downfall of large parts of our community. I mean we now need a garda to escort a post man in Finglas!
 
They should just hire all the massive Eastern European body builder types who you see around. You wont do too much messing with some of those lads around!

My "only2 experience of this is one night on the LUAS, a couple of said massive guys were in some sort of security uniform. There was NO messing on the LUAS that night!
 
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