Irresponsible Commentary on Overseas Property

Ric said:

As for Clubman I have made my point quite precisely and proved where a blanket comment was made that lacked analysis.

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OK - I take it as read that you withdraw all of the other unsubstantiated accusations/insinuations that went before so (e.g. the incorrect claim that the Indo article carried in your exact words "a blanket condemnation of investment in property overseas", that Brendan's personal opinions in no way reflect the views of the IFSRA CP or AAM as a whole, that these or any other critical/skeptical views on foreign property (or other) investments are necessarily "irresponsible" and so on)?

you more or less rallied around your previous opinions as I thought you would

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I don't understand what this means. Please clarify.

but at least henceforth you might be more considered in your views

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Please point out where I was not considered in my views in relation to this matter?

and expect annonymous criticism much like yours when you screw up. End.

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What criticism? It seems to me that Brendan (and by mistaken extension the IFSRA CP and AAM as a whole) and the Indo are the main targets of your criticism - not me in particular. However I am quite prepared to take on board constructive and substantiated criticism if you have any that is relevant to me in particular. Just please provide some supporting evidence this time. For example - maybe you would like to explain precisely where you believe that I personally have "screwed up" (presumably in relation to the issue of foreign property investment)? For what it's worth and in case of any confusion as has arisen before - I am not Brendan and Brendan is not ClubMan.

By the way - also for what it's worth, while I agree that contributors should declare any relevant vested interests as outlined in the posting guidelines, I don't agree with others here who believe that you should not remain anonymous or that you (or anybody else) needs to get into a pissing contest in relation to how their property or other investments have done in order to comment on such matters. On the other I do strongly believe that for a discussion such as this to qualify for The Great Financial Debates rather than Letting Off Steam there should be some basis and evidence underpinning serious accusations and insinuations. Other than the one quote from Brendan above you have failed to provide this sort of supporting information. As such, in the continuing absence of such evidence I will continue to treat your comments as mindless rants rather than reasoned criticism and would urge others to treat them likewise.

Sorry I missed that spat. Not enough people are warning about the dangers of investing overseas. A craze has taken hold and there is definitely a new type of investor who is breaking all the rules in the rush into the market. I haven't heard enough people raise their voice. Brendan Burgess is one, David Mc Williams (who has been wrong every year for years but is now probably right), Damien Kiberd, Eddie Hobbs etc have all written on the subject with hardly a dent in the issue. Against are the combined voice of banks, auctioneers, selling agents and some economists who continue to pooh pooh the notion of falling property prices at home.

Dja vue all over again

I remember Brendan making very negative remarks about tech stocks on The Motley Fool in late 1999 and getting critised for them. By contrast his remarks this time are relatively mild.

It would make an interesting study to ask each of these how much flak they have already drawn.

paddlepuss said:

David Mc Williams (who has been wrong every year for years but is now probably right),

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Just a side point - economists have been saying houses are overvalued, not that they will fall in price. They may or may not be wrong, if the market choses to pay over the fair value then you can hardly accuse economists of being "wrong".

Folks, I have been on the go all day and hadn't realised that such an interesting debate was going on in my absence. Thank you all for defending me but you are wasting your time and energy dealing with guys like Ric. They pop up from time to time making wild allegations and I suspect that some of them are just trying to stir up controversy for the sake of it. Some others are earning a living through selling overseas property and don't want anyone calling for caution.

If people listen to the comments I have made over the years, some will miss out on good opportunities, but a hell of a lot more will save themselves from being ripped off.

And just to clarify, I have never made any public comment in my role as Chair of the Consumer Panel of the Financial Regulator. All such comments are made in my personal capacity.

I will not be contributing further to this thread.

Brendan

Hi Ric

I hadn't realised that you had such a sense of humour or irony when you posted this one under your other user name: Covenant.

Speaking with my moderator's hat on, we don't really like people posting the same views under two different user names. It gives the impression that lots of people think that investing in Cape Verde is a no brainer [sic].

Can you choose one or other name and I will delete the other. Ric is more entertaining, but Covenant is a bit more balanced. But it's up to you.

If you are posting as Ric in your professional capacity, we might make an exception, if you state your professional affiliations.

Brendan
Administrator

Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property

bearishbull said:

advert on radio today ;
"prices in turkey rise 20-30 percent a year"
then it fails to say past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

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I heard that for the 1st time on the radio this morning and I was stunned!!

If that isn't "Irresponsible Comment on Overseas Property" I don't know what is..

"prices in turkey rise 20-30 percent a year"

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Maybe they're referring to general consumer price inflation? Although to be fair to Turkey I think that they managed to gain more control over their economy since the not too distant days of hyper-inflation over there. According to [broken link removed] it's around 8% (a 30 year low) these days. Obviously general consumer price inflation is another relevant factor to research when considering a foreign property investment since it's going to hit your property management/maintenance and other costs going forward.

Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property

soma said:

I heard that for the 1st time on the radio this morning and I was stunned!!

If that isn't "Irresponsible Comment on Overseas Property" I don't know what is..

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do you think we should contact advertising standards or ifsra(probably not relevant as foreign property investment not regulated as far as i can see)

Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property

bearishbull said:

do you think we should contact advertising standards or ifsra(probably not relevant as foreign property investment not regulated as far as i can see)

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Well I did think it was a bit of a sign from God that very next radio ad was from BCI asking for opinions on the standards of radio & TV advertising!

just heard this ad again it says "prices in turkey rise between 20 and 30 per cent and more" how can prices rise by between 20 and 30 % but then by more than that!

Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property

bearishbull said:

advert on radio today ;
"prices in turkey rise 20-30 percent a year".

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Didn't you know, its not like all the other bubbles. THIS TIME IT'S DIFFERENT (honest!)


Murt

Posted by Callina:
Personally, I have moral issues around the whole question of international property investment anyway, between holiday homes and investment complexes, so I'm hardly a balanced observer. I will say this though: I'm mesmerised by the number of people who, on realising the complexity of doing anything involving business or property here in Ireland, think it'll be easier somewhere else when they can't speak the local language

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Is it an indictment of our society that so few people mention the moral implications of overseas investments. It has long been a pet subject of mine, that so few overseas property investors see that there may be long term implications for that economy which they are buying into. I know that this is an investment forum, but it's heartening to hear someone else mention this.
In addition, the lack of regard many investors hold for the local language and legalities can be stunning - like most contributors on here, I have the usual anecdotal story of someone I know heading off to Bulgaria and coming home with 2 apartments (but he got a free flight), now I may be a little sceptical, but this does remind me somewhat of the end of the dotcom boom. I can't help but be reminded of Joe Kennedy and the shoeshine boy.

I think Ric/Covenant has a vested interest in plugging the foreign investment stuff from reading the thread thus far. His silence reinforces the point.
Pity really........
I hope he is selling overseas stuff so we could quiz him on returns yields etc.
Lets call a spade a spade........
if you buy an oversea property by looking at a set of plans in a Dublin hotel without going to see the area and not getting independent tax and legal advice you are a plonker and a gambler......period.
Sadly selling overseas property to the Irish is as easy as selling muck.
The vested interest (possibly Ric and co) do not like adverse publicity.
In this regard Brendan is to be lauded in raising these concerns about the glib way overseas property is being purchased and I support him fully in this regard.

If my net worth was several million and I already owned my own house, had a well diversified portfolio comprising investments in different asset classes, geographic regions, risk/reward profiles (well - two out of three ain't bad ) then I could probably afford to risk buying a foreign property based on no more than a bit of casual research (at best) and a chat with an agent with a vested interest in buttering me up and selling me something. But many people who do this are not in that comfortable position and so are most likely being less prudent than their situation requires. This does not mean that foreign property investment is intrinsically bad/wrong. Rather that for a variety of reasons it is not necessarily suited to most people who get involved, and many of the people who are engaging in it (especially those who have not first of all weighed up all of the other possibly more suitable investment options - equities, debt reduction, pension savings etc.).

markowitzman said:

Pity really........

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Why? Given that Covenant attempted to cast doubt on your motivations for posting in this thread, I wouldn't have any pity for him/them. And mocking anonymous recommendations? An anonymous recomendation is not as suspicious as someone regsitering under multiple usernames........

I for one would be glad if we heard no more crap from him/her. The Property Investment thread is extremely popular and is full of plenty frequent posters who are enthuasiastic on overseas (and Irish property). What Brendan and any of the other moderators think is largely irrelevant, we only express our personal (not collective) opinions, that are there to be refuted or ignored by those that don't agree.

Clubman invariably the high net worth person sees straight through these scam artists as they have the advisors to do the scouting for them.
CCOVICH I would love to ask detailed questions of Ric on foreign property investments.
I am just so sceptical on these "costa del local hotel" property exhibitions and high pressure "viewing trips"!!
Quizing Ric would hopefully get to the bottom of this.
Re him casting doubt on my motivations on the thread I pm'd him with a crystal clear explanation of my chosen career (not financial advisor!) and the fact that I had no link with company I recommended. I finally asked Covenant for an apology to me in this regard on the thread.
Sadly Covenant (sorry Ric!) never did so and instead changed his username........

Glenbhoy said:

Is it an indictment of our society that so few people mention the moral implications of overseas investments. It has long been a pet subject of mine, that so few overseas property investors see that there may be long term implications for that economy which they are buying into. I know that this is an investment forum, but it's heartening to hear someone else mention this.

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Hmmm....is it fair to expect overseas property investors who might not even be considering their own economic future in too much detail to worry about the possible implications for the economy they may be investing in?

I don't know if an indepth discussion of the moral issues of international property investment is really on topic here...my view has always been that property should house the locals first and foremost and property should be framed with their needs in mind first and foremost.

But that's by way of an aside to this thread.

Please dont tell this to the multitude of american multinationals that have invested in our little country!
They invested to get a return on their equity just like overseas property investors in places like spain baltic states etc..
Using the argument of "housing the locals first"........we would be still be dancing at the crossroads here!!
Don't worry......the overseas governments are no fools.......they like us can tweak their tax laws to bring in the investors money and then tax it to the hilt as time goes on.