Simply by its method of collection. An arbitrary amount is taken, with menaces, whether you agree with what it is spent on, or not. This, in my mind is theft.
If someone robs me at knifepoint, and gives the money to charity, it's still theft.
Ah, the old democracy chestnut! What about people that don't want to vote, or partake in the democratic process? I have my doubts that it even is what the majority want.So how do you think it should be collected?
The system we have now is the one the majority of people want, as expressed through our democratic government.
Would they? - how do you know?Your views are understandable but when the implications of their mass acceptance are examined they are illogical in that they would result in a negative impact on everybody.
I have already outlined what taxes pay for and by extention what would happen if they were not collected and you have ignored my points.Would they? - how do you know?
Yes, the problem is obvious - how do we pay for fire engines etc.I have already outlined what taxes pay for and by extention what would happen if they were not collected and you have ignored my points.
Yes, the problem is obvious - how do we pay for fire engines etc.
The current system of taxation is grossly unfair, there must be a better system of paying for public services. I don't know what it is, but that doesn't mean the solution is not out there. Until we adopt a better system, in my view, tax is still theft.
You first describe the system as 'very fair', and then go on to illustrate that it is 'socially inequitable'. Which is it to be?I think the system we have is very fair. Those who can pay do pay and the funds are used to provide public services, public infrastructure and to encourage social and economic equity. The way these things are delivered (or the efficiency of how they are delivered) is a different issue.
There is, in my opinion, too much indirect taxation. I dislike this as I regard it as socially inequitable, with poorer people paying proportionately more, but that’s hardly theft.
Some people might accept that the current system of taxation is the best system available. Maybe the government is happy with this because of the power it gives them. I'm suggesting that there are better systems that haven't been explored. (I'm also pretty sure there's cure for AIDS out there, but I don't know what that is either.)The attitude that “they” need to come up with better rules (but you can’t think of what they are) and ‘till then you will use emotive language like “theft” is, quite frankly, juvenile.
OK, I’ll clarify. I think the current PAYE system is very fair.You first describe the system as 'very fair', and then go on to illustrate that it is 'socially inequitable'. Which is it to be?
You did not say that the current system is theft, you saidSome people might accept that the current system of taxation is the best system available. Maybe the government is happy with this because of the power it gives them. I'm suggesting that there are better systems that haven't been explored. (I'm also pretty sure there's cure for AIDS out there, but I don't know what that is either.)
Describing my choice of language as 'juvenile' is adding nothing to this discussion.
You then expanded by saying that the method of collection was what rendered it theft. You did not at any stage question the morality or fairness of how the burden is spread; simply it’s method of collection. Making such statements without offering any alternative is hardly conducive to an informative or thought provoking debate.My opinion is that tax is theft
In my opinion it isn't. For example, someone who decides to set up a limited company and become an 'S' class director, suddenly gets their tax credits halved. (These people could be on very low pay while they try to set up the company, and the majority of start up companies will fail.) What's fair about that?OK, I’ll clarify. I think the current PAYE system is very fair.
You did not say that the current system is theft, you said Quote:
My opinion is that tax is theft
You then expanded by saying that the method of collection was what rendered it theft. You did not at any stage question the morality or fairness of how the burden is spread; simply it’s method of collection. Making such statements without offering any alternative is hardly conducive to an informative or thought provoking debate.
The way the economy is being handled, you may be moving sooner rather than later!I would hate to see the tax burden increase to fund public sector pay and pensions - and if the increase were large enough then I may choose to move my domicile.
You have been clear that you have an issue with the fact that tax collected (and how it is collected).Not sure I'm following you here. Yes, I said all of the above.
Yes.You have been clear that you have an issue with the fact that tax collected (and how it is collected).
Yes, you have pointed this out. However, you have not backed up this claim. I am suggesting that there are alternatives that need to be researched.I have pointed out that no country can function without funds being collected by government.
Yes, I do have a problem with this as well, and it is a different issue.If you have a problem with value for money or the way the tax burden is spread that’s a different issue.
Yes I have, I have pointed out that government needs funding and shown what this funding is required for.Yes, you have pointed this out. However, you have not backed up this claim.
You have not suggested any alternatives. Without such suggestions your argument is pointless.I am suggesting that there are alternatives that need to be researched.
GoodYes, I do have a problem with this as well, and it is a different issue.
There are two parts to your claim;Yes I have, I have pointed out that government needs funding and shown what this funding is required for.
I've suggested that there is a problem that needs to be addressed by further investigation and study.You have not suggested any alternatives. Without such suggestions your argument is pointless.
Taxes were always paid in one from or another. They also had barter and war and plunder. I don't think that would suit us.how did countries operate before the tax system was intoduced?
Nocan these problems be addressed with modern technology?
I’ve covered that.why should governments collect funding?
Who pays to put the things you use there in the first place? What happens if, for example, a child’s parent’s die and that child has no living relative? Does that child then starve? Who pays for prisons? Who pays for the police?are there any other means of doing this, like pay for what you use etc?
Indirect taxes. These benefit the rich and are socially inequitable.some jurisdictions do not have income tax, how do they operate?
Not in a developed market economy.is there an alternative to currency?
I've suggested that there is a problem that needs to be addressed by further investigation and study.
Couldn't have put it better myselfWe have government in our society, as a consequence of having government we have taxation rules. These rules evolved to their current state in the presence of democracy under the supervision of elected governments. They represent the current best compromise between all known viable alternatives. There may be unknown alternatives or alternatives not widely understood by large numbers of people; but any viable alternative has to stand up to critical analysis and have to gain acceptance by enough people to change our current rules.
Our government is not perfect but its imperfections only reflect the imperfections of its people.
Our government will evolve and change in the future to better meet the needs of our society.
"Taxation is theft" is lazy thinking.
Compared to all the human beings that have ever existed we are extremely fortunate to live in the type of society that we do. We have economic freedom (property rights & capitalism) and intellectual freedom (science, technology, art, writing etc.) These freedoms have made our society prosperous. These freedoms have been hard won over history. Our democracy has chosen the type of government it has and our democracy has chosen the taxation rules it needs to achieve that government.
I believe the taxation we pay as citizens is a small price to pay for the enormous benefits that come from being a citizen of our society.
Hi Ubi
We have comparably very low income taxes and social security taxes in this country.
We get little benefit? There is, of course, some waste of money. But overall we get reasonable value for our taxes.
Brendan
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