Ireland to move to Level 3 from 1st December

[odyssey06]

The Taoiseach said the country will move to Level 3 from 1 December, with some modifications.

• From next Tuesday 1 December, retailers, hairdressers, gyms, libraries, galleries and cinemas will reopen. People will be permitted to use tennis courts and golf courses, and religious services will also be allowed to resume.
• From Friday 4 December, restaurants and pubs with a kitchen on-site are to reopen, but with additional restrictions than before. Hotels will also be able to open to indoor diners. Pubs that only serve alcohol will not be permitted to reopen before Christmas, but will be allowed to serve takeaway drinks.
• From Friday 18 December, restrictions on household visits will be lifted from a ban on household visits, to allow two households to visit a third. Inter-county travel will also be permitted from this date, until 6 January.
• From 7 January, the measures put in place prior to 18 of December will apply, subject to ongoing review of the trajectory of the virus.
  
  
• People are advised to continue to work from home unless it is absolutely necessary they attend in person. The Taoiseach said it has further been agreed that the use of facemasks is now recommended in crowded workplaces, places of worship and in busy or crowded outdoor spaces where there is significant congregation.

Confirmed: Shops, restaurants and some pubs reopen next week, green light for household visits at Christmas

Taoiseach Micheál Martin made the announcement this evening.

www.thejournal.ie

 

[odyssey06]

Lower level detail from RTE

All you need to know about the easing of restrictions

The Government has announced an easing of the Covid-19 restrictions ahead of Christmas, after six weeks at Level 5, the highest level in the framework for dealing with the virus.

www.rte.ie

 

[Leper]

Opportunity lost - Wet pubs allowed to serve take away alcohol and we haven't learned from recent outdoor congregations of groups. Restaurants to be allowed some indoor dining - realistically unpoliced. Gastro pubs to be allowed to open provided the food is prepared within - but in a "controlled environment." I wonder why I don't trust most publicans and most restauranteurs?

Too much trust being placed on the vaccines roll-out but the virus will not disappear overnight. The government has just handed Covid-19 a platform to increase it's dreadful toll of death and infection. And the controlled environments of pubs and restaurants are going to save us? Not a chance! We'll be staying indoors, self distancing and wearing masks for a long time yet to come.

The hope was when the last restrictions were imposed was to reduce the death rate, the daily infections to under 50 (currently 200+ and lowest for some time, but nowhere near <50). Our R number was to be reduced to less than 0.5 and we're not near that.

 

[Purple]

Opportunity lost - Wet pubs allowed to serve take away alcohol and we haven't learned from recent outdoor congregations of groups. Restaurants to be allowed some indoor dining - realistically unpoliced. Gastro pubs to be allowed to open provided the food is prepared within - but in a "controlled environment." I wonder why I don't trust most publicans and most restauranteurs?

Too much trust being placed on the vaccines roll-out but the virus will not disappear overnight. The government has just handed Covid-19 a platform to increase it's dreadful toll of death and infection. And the controlled environments of pubs and restaurants are going to save us? Not a chance! We'll be staying indoors, self distancing and wearing masks for a long time yet to come.

The hope was when the last restrictions were imposed was to reduce the death rate, the daily infections to under 50 (currently 200+ and lowest for some time, but nowhere near <50). Our R number was to be reduced to less than 0.5 and we're not near that.

The level 5 restrictions weren't working. People were visiting each other in their homes. That is what is causing the infection rate to remain high. Drinking in the street will have limited impact on infection rates as it is, by its nature, a well ventilated area.
If level 5 restrictions were kept we'd just get more household gatherings and more infections anyway.

 

[odyssey06]

Schools are still open, far more retail open than previously - even if it is just click+collect, you have staff close contacting.
I didn't think it was realistic to get the case count and R number down that low given there are still so many people interacting on a daily basis.

I don't think there's any confidence from NPHET or government that the regulations in 'pint' pubs would be policed effectively.
Sure in Temple Bar, but not country wide. And they don't want to give a green light which would have more people out and about.
But yes, that will displace things to people's houses.

 

[Leper]

The level 5 restrictions weren't working. People were visiting each other in their homes. That is what is causing the infection rate to remain high. Drinking in the street will have limited impact on infection rates as it is, by its nature, a well ventilated area.
If level 5 restrictions were kept we'd just get more household gatherings and more infections anyway.

I agree, the Level 5 restrictions were short of the mark. Therefore, we should have remained at Level 5 and make them work. Many people have become too relaxed having battled the situation since March. We're not hearing enough about New Zealand and Australia where the battle has got better results. We've come a long way and at this late stage it appears we're caving in to commercial screaming.

 

[Leo]

Too much trust being placed on the vaccines roll-out but the virus will not disappear overnight.

I doubt any of the changes were influenced by recent vaccine news. We won't have sufficient quantities to make any sort of difference until some time next year.

 

[joe sod]

I agree, the Level 5 restrictions were short of the mark. Therefore, we should have remained at Level 5 and make them work.

There is the enormous cost of level 5, the economic cost, Pascal Donohue said it cost at least an extra billion euros on top of the costs of the level 3 restrictions. He also gave a startling statistic that on the night of going back into level 5, the domestic violence helpline reported a doubling in the number of calls they received. When you close everything down like that you also imprison people in intolerable situations where previously they had some escape valves.

 

[Leper]

There is the enormous cost of level 5, the economic cost, Pascal Donohue said it cost at least an extra billion euros on top of the costs of the level 3 restrictions.

Yep, Like I said, it was a decision based on commerce.

 

[odyssey06]

There is the enormous cost of level 5, the economic cost, Pascal Donohue said it cost at least an extra billion euros on top of the costs of the level 3 restrictions. He also gave a startling statistic that on the night of going back into level 5, the domestic violence helpline reported a doubling in the number of calls they received. When you close everything down like that you also imprison people in intolerable situations where previously they had some escape valves.

Something must have been seriously dysfunctional in the situations to erupt like that, that people needed escape valves?
It sounds more like a bomb waiting to go off than one planted by the lockdown.

And many other crimes dropped during the previous lockdown, including crimes against the person overall.
We don't have stats for the current one, but we could expect some sort of drop there again.

So the whole area of secondary effects is messy and complicated and has positives and negatives.
Donohue is the Minister for Finance, he should speak from that remit.

 

[odyssey06]

I agree, the Level 5 restrictions were short of the mark. Therefore, we should have remained at Level 5 and make them work. Many people have become too relaxed having battled the situation since March. We're not hearing enough about New Zealand and Australia where the battle has got better results. We've come a long way and at this late stage it appears we're caving in to commercial screaming.

Australia and New Zealand and Iceland also have real travel quarantine restrictions. Their approach made sense for them but realistically it's not going to happen here because of our land border with the North and EU membership.

You can have open borders or open businesses \ society but not both, or it is only a matter of time before hospitals are overwhelmed.
Even if you had twice the ICU capacity, you would just be buying more time before the case count gets too high.

I don't think we can sustain Level 5 economically indefinitely or even until vaccines arrive.
More practicable would be a harder version of level 3 with real enforcement of the mandatory measures with 'circuit breaker' Level 5 if needed.
And by real enforcement I don't mean tailbacks from garda checkpoints looking for motor tax or turning a blind eye on county final day.
And also need to get tougher with businesses bringing in staff who could WFH.

 

[Purple]

Something must have been seriously dysfunctional in the situations to erupt like that, that people needed escape valves?
It sounds more like a bomb waiting to go off than one planted by the lockdown.

And many other crimes dropped during the previous lockdown, including crimes against the person overall.
We don't have stats for the current one, but we could expect some sort of drop there again.

So the whole area of secondary effects is messy and complicated and has positives and negatives.
Donohue is the Minister for Finance, he should speak from that remit.

I've great regard and respect for Dascal Donohue. He is considered and measured in what he says and what he does. He is by far the best minister in this or any recent government. I listen to whatever he says as it's always worth listening to.

Those in or close to high risk groups are understandably prioritising actions that act to reduce the direct impact of Covid19. Those who own or work in retail point out that there have only been 25 cases of community infection from shops. Those who work in cinemas point out that there hasn't been a single case traced to a cinema anywhere in the world. Those who work in addiction services point out the impact that lockdowns have on addicts. Those who work in mental health services point out the impact that lockdowns have on those who suffer from mental health issues. Those who work in domestic abuse services point out the impact that lockdowns have on those who suffer from domestic abuse. Those who work in international development point out the deaths and suffering that the collapse in international trade has had on the most vulnerable in the world. Every rational voice should be heard.

I've long been of the view that as a cohort pensioners are the most selfish and hyopic group in Irish society. This crisis has done nothing to change that opinion.

 

[Purple]

Even if you had twice the ICU capacity, you would just be buying more time before the case count gets too high.

See that's at the heart of this and, without wishing to sound like a broken record, why has one of the most highly funded and well resourced healthcare systems in the world utterly failed to sufficiently increase its ICU capacity in the last 9 months?

 

[SGWidow]

The level 5 restrictions weren't working.

Firstly, they were working not just effectively enough

Secondly, why were they not working to the hoped-for extent? My view is that sufficient numbers of people were disrespecting the guidelines. The key here is compliance.

It seems to me that a substantial cohort is not respecting the guidelines. There is a house near me, for example, where students from Trinity are, on a couple of nights a week, congregating in serious numbers.

 

[Purple]

Firstly, they were working not just effectively enough

Secondly, why were they not working to the hoped-for extent? My view is that sufficient numbers of people were disrespecting the guidelines. The key here is compliance.

It seems to me that a substantial cohort is not respecting the guidelines. There is a house near me, for example, where students from Trinity are, on a couple of nights a week, congregating in serious numbers.

Exactly. The government governs with the consent of the people. For public health guidelines, or laws, to work they require the buy in of the people. When small business owners see their life's work turn to dust because the it is easier for Gardai to keep them closed than it is to stop house parties, despite house parties being a much bigger cause of infection, that small business owner can legitimately question the validity of, and the justice in, the actions of the State.

 

[SGWidow]

That's fair comment, Purple

Interestingly, what we seem to be getting at in this thread, is debating an earlier thread that I started titled "are we all in this together?"

The truth is that the real life impact on different cohorts is substantially different. These differing impacts mean that their interests are simply not aligned.

 

[odyssey06]

See that's at the heart of this and, without wishing to sound like a broken record, why has one of the most highly funded and well resourced healthcare systems in the world utterly failed to sufficiently increase its ICU capacity in the last 9 months?

Depends what you mean by heart of the matter...

These restrictions and lockdowns are happening all across Europe, even in countries with significantly higher ICU capacity than we have.
If you let the virus run unchecked, no amount of ICU capacity will be enough.
More ICU capacity buys you more time at say Level 2 v 3 or Level 3 v 5.
Other countries have stopped many other hospital services in this phase, we did not. That was another reason for the restrictions.

 

[joe sod]

Exactly. The government governs with the consent of the people. For public health guidelines, or laws, to work they require the buy in of the people. When small business owners see their life's work turn to dust because the it is easier for Gardai to keep them closed than it is to stop house parties, despite house parties being a much bigger cause of infection, that small business owner can legitimately question the validity of, and the justice in, the actions of the State.

It's now a seriously neglected demographic, the small business owner, there is nobody at the cabinet now that voices their concerns anymore especially since this new government, most of the cabinet is under 45, urban, predominantly from the public sector in work experiences. It is noticeable how powerless the publicans are now, yes maybe they had too much say in the past but we are going from one extreme to the other, it is the varadkarisation of Irish politics that is the predominant power now

 

[Purple]

It's now a seriously neglected demographic, the small business owner, there is nobody at the cabinet now that voices their concerns anymore especially since this new government, most of the cabinet is under 45, urban, predominantly from the public sector in work experiences. It is noticeable how powerless the publicans are now, yes maybe they had too much say in the past but we are going from one extreme to the other, it is the varadkarisation of Irish politics that is the predominant power now

I find it strange that many of the same people who say that politicians are overpaid also lament the lack of representation from the private sector. Teachers and Lawyers become politician s because they can walk back into their old job if they lose their seat. That's why there are so many of them in the Dail.

 

[Purple]

Depends what you mean by heart of the matter...

These restrictions and lockdowns are happening all across Europe, even in countries with significantly higher ICU capacity than we have.
If you let the virus run unchecked, no amount of ICU capacity will be enough.
More ICU capacity buys you more time at say Level 2 v 3 or Level 3 v 5.
Other countries have stopped many other hospital services in this phase, we did not. That was another reason for the restrictions.

True but very few countries spend so much on their healthcare system and when adjusted for demographics only Luxemburg spends more than us. We should be top of the league, not in the middle. We didn't stop as many hospital services as some others because we had longer and deeper lockdowns.