Ireland is full.

I welcome the efforts and work by non-EU workers in the health service.

But is it fair on developing countries for us to attract their healthcare staff?

Would it not bet better for us to train more?
 
It is possible to call for more *legal* non-EU immigration via work visas, e.g. in construction, while also calling for less *illegal* immigration by AS making bogus claims.
 
Even if we deported every asylum seeker, it would not make a dent in the performance of our public services. Reminds me of the Brexit Bus promises for NHS funding.

Whether people like it or not, the "Ireland is full" mantra has racist and xenophobic connotations. No amount of etymological pedantry is going to rehabilitate it. Anyone who feels they have a genuine argument for their anti-immigration stance should be smart enough to move on and put their ideas forward with fresh phrasing.

The Irish Independent recently had an article by the ever-so-slightly right-of-centre David Quinn openly discussing the things that people seem to believe are currently illegal under some secret D4 Thought Crimes Act (2023).

Rather than there being a concerted effort by the establishment to block discussion on immigration, it may just be that many anti-immigration arguments are less compelling than their proponents would like to believe.
 
Protocol said:
I welcome the efforts and work by non-EU workers in the health service.

But is it fair on developing countries for us to attract their healthcare staff?

Would it not bet better for us to train more?
Click to expand...
We train more doctors per capita than any other country in the world. We've built a very successful industry training foreign doctors. That's why the IMO can tell lies each year about how many doctors emigrate by pretending that those doctors are emigrating rather than going home.

We don't have a high proportion of overseas nurses in comparison to other rich countries. We do have a high proportion of qualified nurses working part time or not at all. More family friendly rostering would help that somewhat. None of our healthcare problems are caused by immigrants but our healthcare system would be in a far worse state if we didn't have immigrants working in it. There isn't a nursing home in Ireland that would stay open without immigrants doing the jobs Irish people won't do.
 
Protocol said:
It is possible to call for more *legal* non-EU immigration via work visas, e.g. in construction, while also calling for less *illegal* immigration by AS making bogus claims.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Anyone who arrives here with no papers should be automatically disqualified from seeking asylum. Nobody gets on a plane without a passport so if they get here without one it means they destroyed it.
 
Protocol said:
But is it fair on developing countries for us to attract their healthcare staff?
Click to expand...
A majority of migrant health workers don't stay.

Many of them receive valuable on-the-job training here that makes them more employable at home, as well as

It's a win-win.

arbitron said:
Rather than there being a concerted effort by the establishment to block discussion on immigration, it may just be that many anti-immigration arguments are less compelling than their proponents would like to believe.
Click to expand...
The prestige media is the Irish Times and RTÉ. Their staff simply have a very different set of social attitudes from the Irish population. For example 2018 was peak Twitter and you will not find a single example of an Irish Times journalist arguing in favour of retention of the 8th amendment.

I'm not claiming that this is good or bad, but the phenomenon can't be denied.
 
Breda O'Brien would have been openly in favour of retention of the 8th.

Plenty of people in Ireland would share their views and social attitudes.
 
thedaddyman said:
Breda O'Brien would have been openly in favour of retention of the 8th.
Click to expand...
Yes, they have a few centralists and centre right columnists but they are broadly socially liberal and strongly socialist on economic issues.
thedaddyman said:
Plenty of people in Ireland would share their views and social attitudes.
Click to expand...
And there's no problem with that. Where there is a problem is not acknowledging their bias and pretending that they represent a balanced and neutral account of the news and current affaires. RTE are, in my opinion, more guilty of that than the Irish Times as the IT are left wing liberal and socialist but RTE are not much more than a mouthpiece for the Public Sector Unions.
 
Maybe this is where we are all headed - Left-wing, conservative...

German opposition figure launches a new party that may have potential against the far-right

A high-profile German opposition politician has formally founded a new party that combines left-wing economic policy with a restrictive approach to migration and other positions that some observers believe could help it take votes away from the far-right Alternative for Germany.
apnews.com

Wasn't there a similar 'nationalist and socialist' party in the 1930's ?
 
A party like that here would certainly attract a large cohort of Shinner voters; ignorant, populist, begrudging and racist.
 
I think the over-riding opinion here is that Ireland is full. It may well be the case as so many "refugees" have been spending some nights sleeping rough. Our news programmes on television are dominated by Irish people objecting to male asylum seekers and refugees. These objectors see to be ordinary people with no allegiance to the far right or the far left. What are the reasons why male refugees are being challenged regarding accommodation? I say this as being an emigrant to the UK back in the 1960's where there were no objections to me seeking accommodation there.
 
There was no Twitter for people to twit on back then.
I've yet to see any data suggesting that crime increases in areas where male asylum seekers are housed. That's what matters, not hype and hysteria.
 
What about "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish"?

Have to say when I lived in the UK in the 90s, being Irish was never an issue in terms of getting accom.

The difference for you and me in the UK was that we were able to go out and work and were not a burden on the state. These people won't be able to do that in many cases.

in the Carlow case, what the national media have failed to mention is that is the local factors
  • by Easter there will be at least 4 and possibly 5 refugee centres in the town. Currently there are now 2
  • 3 of those will be on the one street with possibly a 4th around the corner.
  • Most of these are owned by the own individual who has also bought other buildings in the town and who has a long running saga in the Courts over planning with the local council. he doesn't even live in the county.
Is Ireland full, no. Are some towns doing more then their fair share, most definatly yes.
 
Plenty of Irish were a burden on the State in the UK. We were economic migrants though, moving from one developed country to another.
International Protection Applicants can apply for a work visa after 6 months if their application hasn't been processed. I can't find any data on what proportion do work but a lady from a representative body who was on the radio said it was significant.

Last year 141,600 people moved to Ireland and 64,000 left. Irish born people made up the biggest proportion of both groups. The "Ireland is full" narrative is a distraction. Of the 77,600 people who moved here last year 13,650 were international asylum applicants. The 70,000 Ukrainian refugees we house are in addition to that figure. Their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons are fighting a war between democracy and totalitarianism on our behalf. The very least we can do is take in those refugees.

Dublin houses the largest number and the largest proportion of international asylum applicants relative to its population. That not withstanding it is legitimate to ask questions and those who do shouldn't be labelled as racist. The people burning down buildings, those guys are racist criminals.
 
Buildings on fire
Rioting in Dublin
Protests blocking roads
Road-blocks to check if 'outsiders' should be let in to their area
Scuffles with Gardai outside accommodation centers
Masked protestors outside TD's homes

None of these were caused by immigrants
All claim to be Irish

Yet we are supposed to be afraid of migrants
 
That's not correct from what I read, Donegal, Wicklow and Mayo amongst others have higher proportions ( and I accept there are lies, damn lies and statistics ! )

New data reveals breakdown of asylum seekers per county | BreakingNews.ie

Dublin has the most asylum seekers per county, and Leitrim has the least. That is according to new figures released by the Department of Integration.
www.breakingnews.ie

There is also the question mark about facilities. Dumping people in small country towns (or anywhere for that matter) with no plans for integration, lack of languague classes, additional facilities etc is a disaster waiting to happen. Queuing for my doctor a few weeks ago and felt sorry both for the patient and the receptionist who were trying to have a conversation using Google Translate as the queue got longer. I was in no rush but you could feel the impatience building from others.

I don't see any coheirant long term strategy here aside from finding a roof over their heads. Like it or not, and given the stalemate in Ukraine, it will be many years before some of these go home, if ever. There also needs to be an information campaign outlining what happens when people arrive to address some of the "vetting" nonsense that is being raised.

As for Carlow, as someone said earlier last week, it wasn't immigrants who took their dead uncle to the post office to collect his pension.
 
I stand corrected. I went with what I heard on the wireless.
Maybe the 1000 or so doctors who work in General Practice who work part time could work longer hours. There's a war on and people need to step up.
I agree. Most of our problems in this country stem from the incompetence of our State Sector.
thedaddyman said:
As for Carlow, as someone said earlier last week, it wasn't immigrants who took their dead uncle to the post office to collect his pension.
Click to expand...
+1
 

Communities don’t get ‘veto’ on who lives in area, Varadkar says amid anti-migrant protests

Roderic O’Gorman, who has met local representatives on Wednesday morning and listened to their concerns, has received all help he requested, Taoiseach said after reports of Coalition tensions
www.irishtimes.com

Simply untrue. You cannot build a house in my area without planning permission, and anyone can object to that. You cannot get planning permission without a 'local housing need' whatever that may be.

It took a 5 year campaign to open a community creche. The local doctor retired 2 years ago, efforts to attract a replacement are ongoing, (and this is 15 km from a major university). Fundraising and planning for a playground took 3 years after the site was donated.

We cannot get permission to extend the graveyard, people are deeply grieved by this.

Yet decisions can be made instantaneously when the will is there.

The phrase 'Ireland is full' reflects frustration at the political unwillingness to develop the infrastructure the country needs, housing, hospitals roads etc.
 
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Interesting poll results on this topic in today’s Irish times. The Shinner supporters are by far the most anti immigration. Will the party pivot to support its base or stick to their current policy?
 
Purple said:
Interesting poll results on this topic in today’s Irish times. The Shinner supporters are by far the most anti immigration. Will the party pivot to support its base or stick to their current policy?
Click to expand...
SF have been trying to appear mannerly so as not to scare the horses and appeal to middle Ireland while at the same time trying to appear the most radical anti the system party to appeal to the frustrated.

This has worked well for them in many ways. Mary Lou has the right South County Dublin fragrance for the one and who could be more anti-the-system than the party of Martin Ferris. Nothing says 'agin the government' like seven tons of ammunition.

They hit a road bump with the water charges issue, initially they supported them wearing their sensible shoes, then Paul Murphy outflanked them on the streets. They quickly pivoted on that and easily put it behind them. The fact that middle Ireland also bought the anti water charges argument helped smooth things over for them.

Immigration is a trickier issue. Pro and anti immigration opinions are strongly held. Both the sensible classes (sensible being an anagram of self-satisfied) and the radical classes are deeply split.

I think that the underling instinct of the SF activists is strongly pro immigrant. There are many anti-immigrant types among SF supporters, a residual Ireland for the Irish mentality and a suspicious of foreigners attitude.

When they are forced to choose, SF will reject right wing populism. It remains to be seen how that will affect their support and who will seek to capitalise.
 
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