Investment Trust options

AaronK

Registered User
Messages
18
Hi,
I had planned on investing a lump sum in ETF's (not in pension account) but the 8 year taxation system is off putting.
So that has led me to Investment Trusts. Being taxed the same as shares is the big advantage over ETFs.

However, choosing what Investment Trusts to invest in is not as easy as choosing ETFs!

So if you wanted to choose an Investment Trust or a selection of them, the idea being to mirror what a global ETF does...
What would you buy?

Thanks
 
Thank you for passing that on. I don't know much about IT's, is it possible to get one that accumulates as well?

I'll go do some homework.
 
is it possible to get one that accumulates as well?
No, ITs are required under UK tax rules to distribute 85% of all income generated on their holdings in every accounting period.

IMO, ITs are a good option for somebody with significant capital outside a pension wrapper, with a low marginal income tax rate.

For example, a retiree on a modest pension who receives a significant inheritance.
 
Thank you for passing that on. I don't know much about IT's, is it possible to get one that accumulates as well?

I'll go do some homework.

You can't have you cake and eat it. The sole reason for deemed disposal is accumulating funds under the gross roll up regime. The reason the revenue allow investment trusts against deemed disposal is they distribute and the revenue get their tax each year.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
The best you can do is to find one with a low dividend yield. FCIT dividend yield is 2pc (per their latest factsheet). Scottish mortgage has a yield of 0.5pc.

These are examples rather than recommendations. You need to do your own research to ensure you find one that matches your needs, risk profile etc.
 
F&C Investment Trust plc (FCIT) might fit the bill -
FCIT certainly has good historic credentials dating back to 1868! It also has very good global diversity even including emerging markets...
It also seems to have outperformed the FTSE All World Index over most periods.

So if you invest in the FCIT and reinvest any dividends does that not make more sense than buying a global ETF?
 
So if you invest in the FCIT and reinvest any dividends does that not make more sense than buying a global ETF?
It depends!

Firstly, over the longer term you would expect FCIT to modestly outperform its benchmark because (a) it carries a degree of leverage; and (b) it has a private equity allocation. Equally, you would expect the return on FCIT to be more volatile than its benchmark.

The next major consideration is your personal marginal tax rate, which could be anywhere between 0 and 55%. If you have a low marginal tax rate, then you are clearly better off being taxed under the standard income tax/CGT regime.

There are a significant number of other threads on the taxation of ETFs but the bottom line is that the exit tax/deemed disposal regime does not necessarily produce a worse tax outcome than the standard income tax/CGT regime. It very much depends on (a) your marginal tax rate; and (b) the contribution of dividend income to total return over your holding period.
 
Nothing is ever straight forward when taxes are involved!
I'm usually on the lower tax rate but aspire to be on the higher one :)

With the Investment Trust, isn't it easier to add money to that fund monthly compared to the ETF alternative, as with the ETF it's a lot of work to account for all the monthly additions after the 8 year periods?
And wouldn't the IT do better with compounding as you don't deduct tax till the end of your investment period (20 years)?
 
With the Investment Trust, isn't it easier to add money to that fund monthly compared to the ETF alternative, as with the ETF it's a lot of work to account for all the monthly additions after the 8 year periods?
Yes, I'd agree that the admin/accounting is probably easier with an IT.
And wouldn't the IT do better with compounding as you don't deduct tax till the end of your investment period (20 years)?
Well, you would only have CGT when you actually sell (there's no deemed disposal) but don't forget that you will have to pay income tax on dividend payments every year.

But if you have a reasonably low marginal tax rate (including PRSI and USC), then I would definitely favour an IT (such as FCIT) over an ETF that is subject to the exit tax regime.
 
I'm also looking into Investment Trusts and the tax advantages over ETF's.

On the Revenue website it states-
If you are an individual, you have a personal exemption of €1,270 each year.

Can one legally sell all their shares on say December 31 and buy them back immediately to 'use up' their allowance?

Revenue also state-
Rate of CGT
The rate of CGT is 33% for most gains.

There are other rates for specific types of gains. These rates are:

40% for gains from foreign life policies and foreign investment products

Do UK Investment Trusts fall under the 'foreign investment product' category?


Re the above recommended F&C Investment Trust and comparing it to the VWCE Vanguard FTSE All-World ETF;

F&C -
0.35% management fee;
0.56% total expenses (assume that does NOT include management fee);
0.65% Ongoing charges.

Total = 1.56% charges.

Tax - 33% on gains (if NOT a foreign investment product).
Personal exemption of €1,270 each year.
Dividends taxed at your regular income tax bracket.

VWCE -
0.22% annual fee.

Tax 41% on gains.
Deemed disposal every 8 years.
Dividends taxed at your regular income tax bracket or accumulating ETF if desired.

Is there anything else I'm missing?
 
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IT are treated like shares - in fact, they are shares; you are buying shares in a company that invests

The CGT allowance of 1,270 can only be offset against capital gains not dividends

Selling enough shares to use up the CGT allowance will attract fees and commission charges
 
IT are treated like shares - in fact, they are shares; you are buying shares in a company that invests
Thanks, good to know. I wasn't sure if Revenue differentiate between 'Investment Trust' and 'foreign investment product' and didn't want a nasty surprise in the future.

Selling enough shares to use up the CGT allowance will attract fees and commission charges

I can do the calculations to see if it's viable, but are there any legal issues with doing it?
 
But if you have a reasonably low marginal tax rate (including PRSI and USC), then I would definitely favour an IT (such as FCIT) over an ETF that is subject to the exit tax regime.

What if the opposite is true, in that you pay a high marginal tax rate, in that case is an EFT (accumulating) better?
 
What if the opposite is true, in that you pay a high marginal tax rate, in that case is an EFT (accumulating) better?
It's not clear cut - it depends on the contribution of dividends to total return over your holding period (which is obviously unknowable in advance).

I would invariably advise (a) to maximise all tax-relieved pension contributions; and (b) to pay off all debt (including mortgage debt) before investing after-tax savings in equities.
 
With a lot of these trusts, the leverage should take care of the costs over time.

Take an all equity trust...one would expect it to deliver decent returns over time; those returns will be ‘juiced up’ by the borrowings, e.g. 20% leverage should enhance the expected returns by 1/5 which should cover some or perhaps all of the costs.

There’s also an element of wanting to have one’s cake and eat it. It looks like a small price to pay to get a better tax outcome.
 
My wife will be on a modest PS pension in retirement, around 11k (total) from 60 to OAP age where she will then get around 16k (total). She can transfer some of her standard rate allowance to me so I think I can be at the 20% rate up to around 44k. Would buying some Investment Trust "shares" for my wife (say through DeGiro) be a good option in terms of boosting her retirement income via dividends, taking advantage of the lower 20% tax allowance she has "spare"?
 
Hey All, I though I would share my Investment trust portfolio, along with the reasoning behind it.
Just to expand on Sarenco's point about Tax first. Both my father and I use Investment Trusts but our tax situation is very different. As a result our portfolios are also completely different.

I am in the highest rate tax band. As a result I am trying to avoid dividends. My investments are for the long term, 10-30 years, so I also want to avoid the 7 year exit tax and also want to avoid higher 41% exit tax rate vs the 33% CGT.
So for me, I want Investment Trusts with low dividend yields and low fees. I want to be globally diversified and have exposure to small and mid-cap stocks. Ideally I want a mix between growth and value (but as you'll see below my portfolio is a little light on Value because I'm trying to avoid dividends). I only choose funds that have a Bronze (or better) rating from Morningstar. My Portfolio is as follows.

FundTickerRatingAllocationYieldFeeStyleStrategy
Berkshire HathawayBRK.B
25%​
0.00%​
Lg BlendUS
F&C Investment TrustFCITSilver 5
20%​
1.59%​
0.56%​
LG GrowthGlobal (CORE)
Scottish Mortgage Investment Trust plcSMTGold 5
15%​
0.62%​
0.38%​
LG GrowthGlobal Tech
Schroder Asian Total Return Inv. CompanyATRGold 5
10%​
1.78%​
0.87%​
Lg BlendAsia Pacific (ex Japan)
Jupiter European Opportunities Trust PLCJEOGold 5
10%​
0.78%​
0.90%​
LG GrowthEurope (CORE)
BMO Global Smaller Companies PlcBGSCSilver 4
5%​
1.13%​
0.60%​
Sml GrowthGlobal Small
Finsbury Growth & Income Trust PlcFGTGold 5
5%​
1.71%​
0.67%​
Mix GrowthUK High Quality
JPMorgan Emerging Markets Inv TrustJMGSilver 5
5%​
1.35%​
1.02%​
LG GrowthEmerging Mkts

Note the Morningstar ratings etc. might have changed since I put the table together some time ago. I also have 5% for individual stocks. I don't consider Berkshire an individual stock, it is basically an investment fund in a stock wrapper.

My father is retired, married and in the lower tax bracket. He also has significant unrealized losses from BOI and AIB shares. If he uses ETF's he can't offset any gains against those losses. He wants an income stream from his portfolio. So he want High dividend yields, low fees, and that ability to offset previous losses. So again Investment trusts fit the Bill. His portfolio is

FundTickerRatingAllocationYieldFeeStyleStrategy
Bankers Investment Trust PlcBNKRSilver 4
20%​
2.37%​
0.52%​
Lg GrowthGlobal Blend
Murray International Trust PlcMYISilver 2
15%​
5.55%​
0.61%​
Lg ValueIntl Hi Div Yld
JPMorgan Global Growth & IncomeJGGIBronze 4
15%​
4.28%​
0.57%​
Lg GrowthWorld Dividend Growth
iShares Global Corporate Bond EUR HedgedCRPH
3​
15%​
2.80%​
0.25%​
BOND ETFDiversified Corp Bond
iShares European Prpty Yld ETF EUR DistIPRPBronze 4
10%​
3.82%​
0.40%​
Mid BlendEuro Property REIT ETF
City of London OrdCTYGold 4
9%​
5.46%​
0.39%​
Lg Valuecore UK equity income
Temple Bar Investment Trust PlcTMPLSilver 1
7%​
6.40%​
0.49%​
Mix ValueUK Value
iShares Fallen Angels High Yield Corp BondWING
4​
5%​
4.50%​
0.50%​
BOND ETFHigh Yield Bond
Mercantile Investment TrustMRCBronze 4
4%​
3.43%​
0.47%​
Sm GrowthUK Midcap

Again exact figures and ratings will be slightly off as the table was generated some time ago. Note that He does use ETF's for his Bond and Property REIT allocations - As the majority of the income from them are expected to come from Dividends and not price appreciation, the tax and loss harvesting issues are not a big concern, so ETF's fit the bill. Arguably his Bond allocation is too low and he is increasing it each year.

But the point I want to make here is that your tax situation will have a large impact on what your optimal portfolio will look like.
 
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