Interesting programme about the "Qu'ran"

redstar

Registered User
Messages
665
Ch 4 have a programme about the "Qu'ran" tonite, 8pm.

Should (hopefully) enlighten anyone interested about whats in Islams holiest book, and maybe throw some light on what drives Islamic Fundamentalism.
ie Is Islamic Fundamentalism based on a correct interpretation of the Qu'ran or just a twisted version to provide justification for sectarian hatred ?
 
I suppose its the same as the Bible. It was written many years after the death of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and has has been modified by the church down the years to suit themsevles...Christian factions today choose what they wish to believe - dont the Creationists believe that Adam and Eve did start things out and Noah saved all the animals etc
 
Is Islamic Fundamentalism based on a correct interpretation of the Qu'ran or just a twisted version to provide justification for sectarian hatred ?
Islam is based on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sunna - not just the Qur'an.
The Hadith and Sunna are the collected sayings and biography of Muhammad and give context to the Qur'an. Different sects accept different versions of the Hadith.

Fundamentalists (a word which allows a lot of inaccuracy) have a very accurate interpretation of their religion - though some quibble about some esotheric aspects of theology to some extent.
The aim of Islam is the spread of Sharia - and the subjection of all people of the world to Sharia. All mainstream Islamic scholars from the Sunni and Shia sects will agree on this - from the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland through to Al-Azhar University in Egypt (though of course they quibble as to which version of Sharia should be implemented). The relationship between such organisations and active jihadists can often (though not always) be similar to that of Sinn Fein and the IRA - to give a comparison that Irish people are familiar with.

What is interesting about active jihadists is their answer to a specific question that was not originally framed in Islam:
In an Islamic state, Jihad (to spread Sharia) can only be declared by the Caliph. Since the dissolution of the Caliphate after World War I means that there is no Caliph, can Jihad be declared and who can declare it?

The Qur'an cannot be reasonably compared to the Bible. Along with the Hadith and Sunna, it records the actions of Muhammad more closely than the Gospels do of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and it does not lend itself to less literal interpretations easily (though some schools of Islam have managed this - e.g. the Shia offshoot Alevism in Turkey). It has not been modified significantly (unlike the Sunna for example) - the official version being canonised by Uthman shortly after Muhammad's death, (Though there are some western academics which dispute this).

Active jihadists aren't the real issue though - the real problem is the growing Islamisation of countries with Muslim populations and with the resultant abolition of human rights - in particular the right to religious freedom. The punishment for converting from Islam was traditionally the death penalty and that view is strongly held by a significant and growing number of Muslims (often up to 40% or higher).
Previously won religious freedoms have been lost even in those countries from Algeria, Egypt, to [broken link removed] (not forgetting all the countries where the existing punishment for converting from Islam is death - Saudi, Qatar, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, and [broken link removed]) and converts in Europe also face being killed.
 
Superman,

you seem fairly knowledgeable on this. Could you recommend any "starter" books on Islam...objective ones..( to the extent that that is possible when discussing any religion).. meaning history of mohammed... about different sects... when schism between sunni and shia began etc...
 
Ibn Warraq "Why I am not a Muslim" is the best objective and simply written history readily available. He's a Pakistani atheist living in the UK and the book is modelled on Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian".

The schism between Sunni and Shia happened almost immediately on the death of Muhammad and is due to a dispute over who would succeed Muhammad - The Shia claim that Ali (a son in law) was designated, whereas Sunni claim that Abu Baker (father of favourite wife). [broken link removed]

Online, the British Council of Ex-Muslims would be a good place to start if you have any questions, and also will give advice about any issues that you should make sure are not obfuscated if you read Islamic apologetics.
 
Hi Superman,

thanks for the recommendation...as both the book and the council of ex-muslims sound somewhat anti islam could you recommend for balance any book written by a believer but which takes a moderate stance?
 
The programme was very informative. C4 will probably repeat it on E4/C4 or More 4 over the coming weeks. Lots of info on the website also - [broken link removed]
 
What struck me was the different interpretation of the Qu'ran given by Islamic scholars compared to Imams, especially those in Iran and Saudi. For example, one scholar said suicide is forbidden by the Qu'ran no matter what, but an Imam said its ok if its the only weapon they have left.

No doubt, Christian scholars and clerics also have different interpretations of the Bible.

Just illustrates human nature being similar worldwide.
 
as both the book and the council of ex-muslims sound somewhat anti islam could you recommend for balance any book written by a believer but which takes a moderate stance?

There aren't any balanced books written by believers (What you are asking for is like asking a Christian to write a balanced book about This post will be deleted if not edited immediately - a balanced book about This post will be deleted if not edited immediately would find the idea that he was divine to be unlikely at best, which would preclude the possibility that the writer was Christian).
There are moderate stances though, if that is what you are looking for. The links I gave are the best for balance - cultural Muslims are the only ones who can give you proper balanced perspective. Here is an excellent blog by a British ex Islamic teacher, if what you are looking for is something highly sympathetic to Muslims yet balanced .

If you do want to read a moderate reinterpretation, http://www.amazon.com/Islam-History-Modern-Library-Chronicles/dp/081296618X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216564927&sr=8-6 (Karen Armstrong) is the most commonly used. Warning: Karen Armstrong writes complete nonsense.( Valid criticism of Karen Armstrong's work in this link )

If you are looking for people attempting to create moderate versions of Islam, there are reformists such as , http://www.amazon.com/Challenge-Fundamentalism-Political-Islam-Disorder/dp/0520236904/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216564150&sr=8-1 (Bassam Tibi), Irshad Manji
Muqtedar Khan is excellent, Irshad Manji is too ridiculously liberal to be respected by Muslims but liked by Westerners for reinforcing their own world view.

The programme was very informative. C4 will probably repeat it on E4/C4 or More 4 over the coming weeks. Lots of info on the website also - [broken link removed]
The program was quite good but did not touch on the the main objections to (mainstream Sunni and Shia) Islam and its effect on society: most importantly, the fact that non-Muslims are not free to practice their religion and that ex-Muslims must be killed.

They were also economical with the truth in many areas:
e.g. Female Genital Mutilation - they had a liberal Egyptian woman say "it is not in the Qur'an", which is true. However FGM is supported by Sunni Hadith - which help inform Sharia.
The strict interpretation of FGM in the major schools of Sunni Islam is that it is legal and luke-warmly recommended (or even required), and that it is illegal for an Islamic state to ban FGM.

Firstly you are comparing Shia (Iran) and Sunni Wahhabi (Saudi) Islam - which is like comparing the Catholic Church to Baptists. Also one of the biggest problems with Islam is its lack of central authority - it resembles Christians in the US more than the Catholic Church in that respect and makes reform difficult.

Suicide is completely forbidden in all sects and schools of Islam. There are some interesting cultural results of this in Islamic countries (e.g. a tendency to "suicide by cop"). Suicide attacks are justified (in Sunni and Shia theology) as being Martyrdom attacks (Shahid)- which are completely permissible. The only question is whether the given situation constitutes Jihad or not, which is required for someone to become a true Shahid. Martyrdom attacks also must be undertaken for the benefit of Islam not for the individual martyr (as Shahideen are guaranteed access to heaven) - i.e. one must not simply throw down one's weapons and run at the infidels - hence the Imam's pronouncement.
 
Again superman thanks for the info.

However as a christian myself( although not a particularly devout one) I guess I have a different view on issues of balance...
still I appreciate the info and will check out several of your suggestions