Insulation of roof and windows

Hi Guys,
I'm looking at buying an old house. I found some of the upstairs rooms cold and when I looked in the attic I could see that the slates on the roof are hammered in to each other and in to the rafters and thats it. There was practically a gale blowing up there too(this seems to be coming through the attic door-which doesn't fit 100%)
There is insulation on the ceiling though.
I would have expected some type of felt and perhaps some insulation inside the roof.
Is it expensive to sort this out. I was looking at the sheep wool insulation mentioned on another post.It appears to be almost a DIY job.Would some felt and insulation be enough to sort this out?

Also, is it easy to replace the rubber insulation in the inside of an aluminium window?Half the windows must have problems with this. I can feel the breeze coming in though where the rubber has come away.

Thanks a lot
S

insulation of an old house

Hi Savy!
Second question first:Yes,it is no problem to replace the rubber strips of your aluminia windows.Bring a small piece with you and visit your window maker/seller,he will have the right strip for replacement.It could be cheaper to go to a DIY shop and check if they have it (farmers coop).If they have only some insulation strips that COULD fit then just buy an inch or two and try it out,you probably need an entire coil of the material for the house and it would be a waste of resources to buy the wrong material.There are hollow strips available -like the one on a fridge door- and there are folded ones.If the hollow one fits go for it even if it costs a bit extra.It insulates better and might last longer.
Think about replacing the old aluminia windows as soon as you can afford it,they are wasters concerning energy.Cooking pots made from aluminia are sold as "energy saving" due to their good heat conductivity.You want the opposite for your window frames.
First question:there should always be a wind breaking membrane/barrier between the insulation material and the tiles.This would have to be made of a "breathing" material like Tyvek (or something like it).The reason for this is that wind blowing in between the tiles can bring in water as well,snow or rain or fog.This must be avoided under all circumstances.
The (cost)problem lies in retrofitting:first you need to take down the tiles,than the laths .Then you put on the membrane.Than new laths back and than the tiles.After this job is done you can put in insulation material between the beams.
Get a DIY book to see exactly how it needs to be done,there are to many little details to explain here.Collins DIY manual or something like.Don't safe on the insulation,it will pay back it self very quickly.Once you are on the job check the beams if they are rotten and need replacement,the laths are not to be used again but the beams could be fine for another generation.Working on the roof is not exactly a DIY job for someone who is not experienced,but bringing in the insulation should be fine-maybe with someone who has done it before.Stay away from offers that would use polyurethane foam sprayed on the inside of the roof,this will certainly ruin your timber within a short time due to rot.Timber can get wet if it can dry as well,but enclosing wet timber from three sides with a non breathable material will almost certainly cause it to rot.

Re: insulation of an old house

heinbloed1,
Thanks for your detailed info.

Yea, I agree 100% on replacing the windows. But may not be able to get around to it for awhile.

I didn't think that the roof would be such an ordeal.
Your effectively re-roofing the house.That doesn't sound cheap and certainly doesn't sound like a DIY job!!

You seem to be very knowledgable on roofing.
Could you guestimate a figure for an old period style house?

Thanks again
S

insulation

No,sorry,I can't.I worked on roofs myself but there are to many details to be considered.You could ask an experienced carpenter to make a survey and to give you a snag list,but tell him in advance that you do not want a cost proposal but a survey report.That you should get for a hundred €s or so,and with this report you can invite tenders.Obviously the building market is booming and there are many cowboys and chancers out there.You could be lucky and find a retired reefer/carpenter who is proud of his trade and interested in good workmanship and might also be able to do some supervision of the job being done.The local chamber of trade and commerce could be the right contact address .

Savy,

Perhaps a call to Frank O'Reilly mentioned in this thread might give you some indication of price

roofbond maybe?

most houses built pre mid sixties, wouldn't have any any felt. Retiling the roof seems to be a fairly drastic solution unless the roof will need this soon.
There is a product "roofbond" which an insulation crowd will spray a hardening foam onto the backs of the tiles. Also will act as insulation to a certain extent, hold your tiles in place and do some of the work of the membrane. Priced it myself but haven't done it yet, anyone know much about this.
Premier insulations that gave me one quote €3000 , but its a pretty big roof

roofbond maybe?Better not....

The insulation material which is sprayed on the inside of the roof-onto the roof tiles,laths and beams-is a bad thing for your timber.The reason why your timber is not rotting away is-despite getting wet occasionally since the lack of felt- that it will dry quickly enough before mould/fungi can settle and penetrate.There is a permanent breeze through your roof that drys every wet point.When you stop this breeze by packing one side of the roof with plastic sheet ,felt or polyurethane foam(for example "roofbond") than the wind will still carry water onto the timber and that would now penetrate the timber .The timber will suck up the water and once it has reached more than 20% saturation it will start to rot.
This material (the foam)has been condemned several times by carpenters/homeowners in the UK and had been warned of here in Eire as well.It does more damage to the roof structure in terms of money than it will safe on the fuel bill.
An alternative- if you don't want to take down the slates and lathes to cover the roof beams with felt -would be to insulate between the floor beams and cover this insulation with tongue and grove planks or boards.Make sure that this insulation is thick enough,if the height of the floor beams won't allow for the min.requirement of 20 cm insulation than you can increase the height of the floor beams by adding some timber to them to give you the necessary height.The more the better.Drive in the nails/screws diagonally in a changing pattern (fish bone/V-shape pattern),this will also increase the load bearing capacity of the beams.
This method would ad also to the sound insulation capacity in case you would turn the attic in times to come into an extra room.
The timber roof constructions last a long time if they can dry after getting wet by rain,look at our old church towers.Some are hundreds of years old and preservatives where not known when they where build(except for tar,but this would not have been used for the reason of fire safety).The wind/snow/hail/rain is going though them since generations.
This "natural preservation" ability of timber keeps your roof upright and you should not interfere with it.Unless you can keep the moisture/rain out for good -by applying a felt .But the felt would have to go under the laths on the beams and nowhere else.
Another problem of the PU foam is that it will turn brittle within a year -or even less-once light can get onto it.And in an ordinary roof without felt you will get plenty of light between the tiles.So my advice -and that of all serious civil engineers and carpenters- is to stay away from the foam.
P.S.:Have you read the news this week about the increased hole of the ozone layer?Well,it is the CFC that is causing a good deal of it and it is CFC that is/used to be in the PU foam and it is the ultraviolet radiation of the sun that destroys this PU foam....
There seems to be a somewhat higher justice coming from above(smiley)!

Re: roofbond maybe?

good points think I'll steer clear for now anyway- funny enough but their golden pages ad has a little insert "as seen on about the house". surely they don't feature condemned or dodgy products on this diy show.

about the house

They do so quiet frequently.The ads shown in connection with the program contravene any honest/serious journalism.The program makers are no journalists,you hardly ever find the pro and cons of an issue put down for the viewers in numbers and facts to judge themselves.RTE has ,in my opinion,no interest in "boring" the viewer with facts.The typical viewer to whom this program is designed for is virtually illiterate when it comes to facts,numbers,criticism.We have an illiteracy rate of over 20% here in Ireland and illiterates spend an enormous time watching TV.What might explain the RTE TV quality standard to some extend as well.
I have seen Mr.Dunkin for example praising electr.heating fixed to a sealing of a roof as "very economic" , the program sponsored by the ESB.No outcry,just average acceptable RTE standard.In the rest of the EU they would have to show a lengthy excuse and a correction of the story at the same time for the same length the next week.But RTE?Forget it.
About the spray-on PU foam you can find many articles in the builders press,even some in the glossy magazines that make a living from advertising. As far as I remember it had been banned for use in public housing in the UK many years ago.

Heinbloed1

Heinbloed1,

You seem very knowledgeable - do you perchance do direct consultation work ? I would love you to visit our old house before we start renovating and give it the once over (for a modest fee of course...)

Regards,
Teabag.

Re.:

Hi Teabag!
I am neither an engineer nor an architect.But thanks for your trusting.If you have any particular question than feel free to ask-for free on AAM.Putting old houses up to scratch is a very complex and expensive task,so don't trust anyone.Make sure you always get a second expertise , be it about the job it self or the money/wage for it to be done.
On the continent they use professionals to do the supervision,a building supervisor.In medieval times these persons bears the title of "building master", da Vinci was one of them.They had three different master degrees ,for example mason plus carpenter plus painter. I haven't heard about this job in the (home)building industry here.The most important thing is that these persons are a.)independent and b.)fully insured for almost anything.And of course they should be better qualified than an Irish architect.Architects here in Ireland need no qualification at all to call them self "architects".So it would be an independent civil engineer you are looking for.Good luck anyhow.And never stop asking!

advice

Heinbloed,

I have an architect alright and he seems good but I think he will be handing over the drawings and washing his hands so I will have to trust in lots of tradesmen then. My DIY skills aren't brilliant even though I have loads of DIY books now...

I dont care that you're not an engineer or an architect. You should still offer consultation advice. I have always read your posts and I find that you really know your stuff but that you are also easy to understand and you know where people make the most mistakes.

I am already closing up my fireplace on account of a posting you made last year (inefficient energy etc).

Anyway if you're ever out west and want to offer some advice, let me know.
Cheers,
Teabag.