Increase in State pension age to 67 should be delayed by seven years, report to recommend

Sarenco said:
What is her marginal tax rate?

PRSI is just income tax under another name - it all goes into the same pot, the social “fund” is a fiction.
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The first time I saw a rabbit hole posted on this forum if my memory is correct was by your good self I think,
she would pay away lower tax in Ireland and have a lot more tax breaks for the self-employed,

The reason I know is she was able to use Irish self-employed status the first year or two after moving to save big on tax,,
Irish self-employed tax breaks was the Icing on the cake marginal rates away lower in Ireland,
 
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kinnjohn said:
Irish self-employed tax breaks was the Icing on the cake marginal rates away lower in Ireland,
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What are these “self-employed tax breaks”?

I note that you still haven’t told us your daughter’s marginal tax rate.
 
Sarenco said:
What are these “self-employed tax breaks”?

I note that you still haven’t told us your daughter’s marginal tax rate.
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not going down that rabbit hole
I
you should be well able to look up social security rates in Austria and tax rates for the self-employed, and directly employed workers,
There are several good forums like Askaboutmoney giving advice on going to work in Austria or Ireland from another EU country that posters can lookup no need for me to go down a rabbit hole,

Better for the people Quoting Irish self-employed paying 62% Marginal tax rates to look up the site on self-employed going to work in Ireland And then look up self-employed going to work in Austrian/Germany for themselves they will be far better informed and have a more rounded world view on social security and the tax systems within the EU

Just for the record, I paid well over 62% marginal under FF/FG/LAB and it never stopped me from working Then FF had a bust-up and Desmond set up the PD party The strange thing was Desmond had no problem with me paying over 62% when he was part of FF party in government and opposition, but he had a problem with the marginal rate when he set up the PD,
 
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Shirazman said:
From time to time, the 'ignore' option on this site seems a very useful feature!
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Very useful I agree
Ireland Would be a wonderful place to live if Ignoring or defending the unfairness in the social insurance system
Wasn't going to cost the very people Ignoring and defending the unfairness long term, and causing massive damage longterm,
The contributory pension was supposed to be one-third of the average industrial wage employees/employers
stopped paying PRSI once their earnings went above the average industrial wage,

this was removed some years ago to help plug the gap and make up for the shortfall for people who pay 4% or less for 10 years on 5000 euro and get the same pension as someone on 100K who sees 14.75% of their payroll goes into the Prsi fund every year for possibly 50 years,

As I said the biggest losers long term will be high-income self-employed and high Income paid employees the kind of people who vote for the present set up, I cannot see any Government let it be left-wing or right-wing cancelling the now established policy of charging PRSI on all income by FF/FG/LAB and the Greens with no extra benefits,

The penny has started to drop some posters who were inclined to defend the present unfair Prsi system are starting to do the sums and don't like the marginal tax rates now required for using the Ignore button for so long,
 
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Sarenco said:
As things stand, that would increase the marginal tax rate for the self-employed to 62%!!

Why would anybody bother working if they can only retain 38 cent in every earned euro above a certain level? Cue massive tax evasion…
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the penny is beginning to drop slowly, the marginal tax take from payroll is close to 62% from paid employment,
It was away higher before the TROIKA arrived,
Employees marginal rate around 50% + another 10.75 % employers PRSI for a grand total of over 60% Marginal tax taken from payroll under PAYE,

I thank my good friend Sarenco for pointed out PRSI is just another Tax in Ireland, as I said all over the EU employee and the self-employed pay around the same amount of payroll tax, normally self-employed pay around one to two % less of payroll, I expect Ireland will have to tax more because we ignored self-employed PRSI for so long,

as for massive tax evasion expect it to be met by cutbacks in tax breaks and revenue audits,at arm's length from the main political parties,
 
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Fistophobia
I hope you don't mind me pointing out to you that FG under Kenny and Varadker oppose the USC tax and promised if part of the next Government they would do away with the USC , expect the same again when it comes to self-employed PRSI, It worked before and will work again,
Word in the Grapevine is prsi increases are not going to be part of any budget but regular increases over a set timeframe,

Don't forget this commission was set up by Leo and Michael its terms of reference included looking at self-employed social insurance rates they know self-employed PRSI rates Has to be addressed before increasing the contributory pension age,

the report has been leaked ahead of publishing for a reason, expect a people assembly to follow,

FG under Leo don't mind shafting their supporters again once they find a way of retaining their vote which was not hard to achieve in the past under Leo/Enda,

slowly slowly catchy a Monkey,
 
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kinnjohn said:
you should be well able to look up social security rates in Austria and tax rates for the self-employed, and directly employed workers,
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In Austria you can get up 80% of your average lifetime income at 65.

That's for Austria social insurance costs of 10.25% per employee and 12.55% employer.
In Ireland our 4% employee 11% employer, we get a max of around 12,000 euro regardless of your average lifetime income.
So it's more expensive, but the payback is a multiple of what we'll get.

Are our alternative governments promising Austria pensions to lowly taxpayers? I think I missed that? Where do we buy the uniform and sign up - I look forward to increasing my PRSI to 10.25 - because then I can cut my private pension from 20%. The self employed would also be delighted to pay much more for this scheme.
 

If loads of people don't work because there is nothing for them to do, then why has there been so much immigration into Ireland in the last 20 years?. As for "loads of people on payrolls doing next to nothing" those employers won't survive in the long term.
 

It's an interesting development, the mass immigration. The vast majority of those people do work in productive jobs. They work in restaurants, or supermarkets, or factories. These places still follow the capitalist paradigm. No boss is going to employ someone in a restaurant to sit around, for most of the day, making cat memes on the internet. The low paid are worked very hard and, in my experience, still ruthlessly exploited with regard to breaks, holiday pay, overtime etc. The minimum wage is regarded by many employers as a maximum, over which they cannot tread.
But there are large sections of society, in well paid jobs, both public and private sector who are doing next to nothing. Or, at least, they can do what they really need to do in a fraction of the time for which they are employed.
Automation, computerization have improved efficiency enormously in the last 40 years, but we seem to be " working " even longer hours. There is no imagination in employers or government policy makers.
One good example I know is the Royal Mail in the UK. Back in the good old 70's, when unions had a bit of pull and got proper worker friendly deals for their members, a deal was negotiated known as " Finish and Go". The postmen would collate the mail every morning, deliver it and then return to the depot to return any undeliverables. This was calculated to take 8 hours, which was the working day. So the deal allowed postmen to complete their tasks and then go. Sometimes they'd finish a bit early, sometimes a little later. Everyone happy.
Then automation started to make the first part of the job much more efficient. The mail was already collated, so the posties could, after a quick check, hop on their bikes, at 6.00am, with the mail ordered and ready. They then delivered the mail, as quickly, as they could, often finishing by 9 or 10.00am. The mail was delivered quickly, efficiently and the worker had a bit of free time for gardening, heading to the cinema, or child care, or whatever.
Then the private sector gurus came in and, appalled, demanded that the posties work their contracted hours. The policy was changed from " Finish and Go" to " Finish and go do something else". Of course, this just resulted in the postal workers slowing down, so that they still completed their contractual obligations, but over the 8 hour day. Result was a drop in the quality of service to customers and a drop in the morale of the staff.

There are so many jobs just filling up the week, when they could be done in half the time, if people were incentivized. Instead, like the postal workers, people know that if they completed their tasks quickly and efficiently by Wednesday lunchtime, the employer would pile another load of, largely, pointless tasks onto them.
We were all promised more free time, more leisure, less work as the automated world developed and we could easily have it, but old habits die hard. The morality of " hard work" must still be the price of any reward. Even though, those who work hardest, the shop workers, the factory workers, the restuarant staff, are paid the least.

The raising of the pension age is just another example of this nonsense. Forcing people in their late 60's to trundle off to work , instead of allowing them a few years of well deserved retirement. I mean 70 is regarded as vulnerable, prone to serious complications from a simple virus. There are a host of other chronic illnesses, not to mention tiredeness, fatigue and reduced mobility, which will quickly effect all of us when we go past 65 ( or even earlier). Many of us will be dead before we get to 68. Are we really so devoid of imagination, that this is the best on offer?
 
I share your deeply held view that it's wrong of employers to expect their employees to work for all of the hours that they are paid for.

Indeed so impressed was I by your passionate argument that I have just ordered a supply of hammocks and comfy chairs for my entire workforce.
 

A business owner sets up a business plan. He works out that for 400 Euros of someone's labour he can make 200 Euros of profit. He calculates that labour will take 35 hours a week. So, he recruits someone and sets them to work. But the worker who does the job gets to know it better than the boss and after a while he can do it very efficiently. So efficiently that he can complete all the tasks in 20 hours. You still make your 200 Euros of profit, from his labour. So, what's the problem?
 
I expect the people who work for my business to get the work done. I really don't mind how many hours it takes, unless it's an unreasonable imposition on their own time. It does depend on the business type obviously. If it was a customer service type job, they would need to be covering set hours.

I do expect them to buy their own hammocks and comfy chairs.
 
I forget the name of the genius who said that he likes to employ lazy people. He does so, because they always find an easier way to do the job.
 
I agree
Thanks for acknowledging you looked it up,

I wonder what the people gorging on the 8 billion tax the Government forgoing every year in pension breaks would be doing now, I wonder would they still be the cheerleaders for increasing the pension age,

Just for the record, In 47 years working including putting in long hrs, I was laid off for around 5 months around 1985/1986 back then I got 75% of my wages in unemployment benefits Today you would get the same as someone who never worked a day in there life,

If you look at Sarenco post which I replied too he is under the impression increasing self-employment payroll PRSI up to around the same as paid employment would lead to tax evasion among the self-employed shows the Irish PRSI system is anti-work for both paid employees and the self-employed,

(if you look at the people who liked his post) you will see most are upset at how some people game the welfare system in Ireland, but at the same time are not open to change the system to reward the people who go out to work all of their lives,
most of the people I worked with will need to work close to 50 years to get the state pension at 65

I have seen men just about able to walk down a factory floor to their workstation who worked a few past existing pension age only to retire around 67/68 and fall into ill health within a year or two and never really enjoy retirement I get the feeling it was the worst decision they ever made in there working life,

I am disgusted at the state trying to force people of my generation because most will have work close to fifty years on reaching 65, which in one sense will be good because most will realize they will not be able to stay working until 67 or 68 and will retire before 65 if they have any underline Issues and cash in there PRSI chips which will cost the state more in the long run,

I know by raising the pension age to 67 or 68 more able-body men and women will claiming disability before reaching 65 if they have underline health Issues, I see it happening already the trigger was raising the pension age and the state advising people to use up all outstanding PRSI entitlements to make up for the increase in pension age

people coming up to retirement should not feel ashamed of cashing in their PRSI chips After all it was the same people who increased the pension age who were encouraged them to do so

What a lot of posters on here don't realize if you look at the marginal payroll tax taken as described by Sarenco people now reaching 65 on average wages seen massive tax take from payroll most of their lives,
PS
I get the feeling some on here think I am anti-Self-employed absolutely not true my whole working life depended on the services provided by the self-employed I am very pro-work but the PRSI system in Ireland is anti-work,

FF/FG/Lab and now the Greens social security policies are recklessly putting this Countries future in danger,
rasing the pension age is not a saving
raising the none contributory pension age in most cases is just transferring people from one type of social insurance
payments a year or two later with no cost-benefit,

raising the contributory pension age is awakening and highlighting how unfair the present PRSI system is on people
who started working at a young age seeing around one-sixth of their payroll taken in PRSI for over forty years being lectured to by people who will never put in the same amount of yearly contributions into the system as they have, will retire earlier than planned and take back as much of the overpayment in PRSI as the can,
 
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So you now have 15 hours of labour free that you can sell to make more money and if you are clever enough in your business, you incentivise your staff as part of this so it is win win.

And if you don't, your staff only work half the time and should have no issues working til they are 70 since they are dossing off half the time anyway.

And eventually, you will go out of business as more effective and efficient competitors come in and undercut your price since they realise they can do the task for the price of 20 hours. And your staff member loses their job as a result.
 
The banksters got plenty of incentives and lots of early retirement for staff, incentives don't always work you know, no point in being a buisy fool,
 
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kinnjohn said:
The banksters got plenty of incentives and lots of early retirement for staff, incentives don't always work you know, no point in being a buisy fool,
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If I'm getting incentivised, why am I a fool. ??

Better a busy and paid fool then an unemployed fool. There is a reason most large scale low skilled manufacturing no longer exists in Ireland and it is because it can be done in a lower cost country and at much cheaper cost.
 
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And there you have the boss mentality.

The guy who completes his tasks in 20 hours is gonna get on just fine.
He'll spend the other 15 hours reading, or watching cat memes on the Internet, or chatting up the secretary in accounts.
He's not gonna tell his boss he's finished everything by Wednesday lunchtime.
Because, well, because of what you said.
 
It is an area I know very well I worked in costings before I retired from high-end manufacture high margins and wait for it large scale low margin manufacturing of commodity engineering parts, to OEM all over the World including China,
You would not last long manufacturing low margin high volume or low volume low margin items with a mindset that includes the word low skilled in Ireland,
I have seen competitors move to low-cost countries and we wiped them out in a few years all down to their managements mentality of low margins equal low skill,
 
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