Implications of New Part L for planning applications after 30 Nov 2011

[onq]

Implications of New Part L for planning applications after 30 Nov 2011


I cannot help feel that this Part L has been let run away with itself with no real assessment of its implications.

Far too much of the billing and cooing on Construct Ireland seems to be without critical comment - nothing is THAT good.

As usual the RIAI "show" costs a Kings Ransom - someone needs to impress on them the need to get the information out there on a value for money basis.

They need to get the unit cost down and numbers up.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

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From: http://www.riai.ie/index.php/news/a...tant_message_from_the_riai_practice_director/

News
REVISED PART L - Important Message from the RIAI Practice Director

Posted: Friday, November 11, 2011

RIAI Practice Director, Joe Miller has issued an important message to RIAI Members on the forthcoming revised Part L of the Building Regulations.

“I cannot stress enough how important it is to understand the forthcoming changes in Part L 2011 of the Building Regulations to the way we design domestic dwellings. As you will see below, Part L 2011 will come into force in about 3 weeks, on the 1st December 2011; the transitional period ends on the 30th November 2011. Unless a planning application is made by that date, compliance will be required with Part L 2011 for planning applications on and after 1st December 2011.

Compliance with Part L requirement is quite onerous, both in terms of design and construction. The Part L Road Show programme will analyse the changes that are relevant in the new Part L 2011 and comparisons will be drawn between them and the current Part L requirements. The case studies, which form the latter part of the Road Show, will demonstrate how compliance can be achieved at the design stage, in some cases with the greatest difficulty, for the semi-detached house; an apartment building; an extension to an existing dwelling and an historic building with an exempted development to the rear. We announce the RIAI Road Show below and urge as many of the RIAI members, as possible, to attend.”

Download Technical Guidance Document Part L - Conservation of Fuel & Energy - Dwellings (2011)
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,27316,en.pdf

The RIAI has arranged an RIAI Skillnet CPD Road Show on the New Part L with dates, costs and location below:

View the event programme

Download the booking form

Dates:

Dublin on Thursday 24 November 2011 - (9.15am-1.30pm)
Galway on Tuesday 29 November 2011 - (1pm-5.15pm)
Cork on Thursday 1 December 2011 - (1pm-5.15pm)

Tutors: Members of the RIAI Sustainability Taskforce

Cost: RIAI practices €95 (price includes RIAI Skillnet funding as applicable)

RIAI member* €105 (price includes RIAI Skillnet funding as applicable)

Non-RIAI member €160

For further information contact:Teresa Harte, RIAI, 8 Merrion Square, Dublin 2. Tel (01) 676 1703 Fax (01) 661 0948 e-mail: tharte@riai.ie

 

[lowCO2design]

yes it has its flaws, and of course DEAP has not yet been updated. NOR have the acceptable construction details been updated!! they are certainly missing a trick allowing such retarded thermal bridge details and poor air-tightness standards. the way technology is forced on us, over the construction of a well orientated, super building fabric, compact designed buildings, with little or no heating requirements

imho 90% of the entire construction industry here is not even complying with the 2008 40% reductions on the 2005 Reg's, never mind this impending 60%

I wouldn't be overly interested in this seminar, I'll be waiting for the updated software and sitting down with a sample house, the TGD-L and mess around with the values in DEAP

you've seen http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,23658,en.pdf (this) and this

[broken link removed] another seminar option, but still in An Pháil! but sure who cares anyway, there's no building control and no one believes in building regulations when retro-fitting or extending anyway !!

 

[onq]

I do try to comply with the building regulations when extending, actually, but I am unwilling to put in these ever higher standards which are unworkable.
You mentioned the details and I'd ask you to follow the link and read through the Appendix in the New Part L 2011 and offer opinions to me on it.
I intend talking with a lot of people over the next few weeks and putting feedback to the RIAI and the Minister on this part of the law.

Let me focus on one bugbear of mine - the installation of blocks of low thermal transmissivity at the base of walls to avoid a cold bridge.
Most of these blocks obtain their low thermal transmissivity by being 80% air, with consequent reduction in structural strength.
Picture the block having been saturated by a day of torrential rain after a wet period where water simply isn't getting away.
The block is within a foundation stricture so drainage "out" is limited anyway and there is no "outboard" insulation.

How reasonable is the following scenario, given the huge number of new settlement cracks that have appeared in walls and buildings around Dublin in the past six months following last years frost?
A deep freeze follows on and penetrates to the level of the block, and the water within the interstitial spaces in the blocks matrix freezes and damages the block.
I'm not saying structural collapse is imminent even after this, but it seems as though the base of the wall is weakened.
The block at the base of the inner leaf now has a compromised structural matrix.
Over time this could have serious consequences for the house.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[lowCO2design]

theraml bridging

average overall standards (U-values) as set in the Elemental Method in Building Regulations 2008 TGD-L (Dwellings) for instance, the proportion of the overall heat loss due to thermal bridging in average dwellings built recently is probably between 10% and 15%.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,18749,en.pdf (acd details)
now if the DOE states the above and only recommends thermal-bridge reductions from 0.15W/m2K to 0.08W/m2K then surely getting them down to 0.01W/m2K(considered 0 by the PHI) would be a good idea? Would it not be better than the 10% renewable requirement, when all that's need is more attention to architectural detailing!

Let me focus on one bugbear of mine - the installation of blocks of low thermal transmissivity at the base of walls to avoid a cold bridge.
Most of these blocks obtain their low thermal transmissivity by being 80% air, with consequent reduction in structural strength.

your referring to quinlite or similar lightweight aerated blocks, they do come in different strengths to suit structural requirements 5 - 7 or 9N/mm².

I would generally look to the certifying structural engineer to be happy with their compressive strength, an have had no issues to date.

Picture the block having been saturated by a day of torrential rain after a wet period where water simply isn't getting away.
The block is within a foundation stricture so drainage "out" is limited anyway and there is no "outboard" insulation.

how about covering the porous blocks?

How reasonable is the following scenario, given the huge number of new settlement cracks that have appeared in walls and buildings around Dublin in the past six months following last years frost?
A deep freeze follows on and penetrates to the level of the block, and the water within the interstitial spaces in the blocks matrix freezes and damages the block.
I'm not saying structural collapse is imminent even after this, but it seems as though the base of the wall is weakened.
The block at the base of the inner leaf now has a compromised structural matrix.
Over time this could have serious consequences for the house.

interesting assumptions, I've never worried about it, but if I was I'd just use some other material

Have you heard of [broken link removed]

There are different materials that can be used as a thermal break other than aerated concrete. If your not happy with aerated blocks due to structural/moisture concerns use something else, we were quiet late to catch on to them in Ireland and they have been used elsewhere in the EU for sometime.
or why not change the construction method, many are now going for an insulated foundation systems for instance

There are loads of ways of building and detailing to avoid Quinlite if you wish.

ONQ I presume you've seen [broken link removed]software

As a more general look at thermal bridging (for any home-builders out there) have a read here:
[broken link removed]



[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]

 

[onq]

Okay, I'm now officially snowed under with information.

I'll have to sift through all this - not for the first time - and thanks

I've stated on this and looked at the foam glas product - I've downloaded the brochures and I need more materials information.

Being able to withstand a load isn't the same as being durable, and if there are hollows that water can fill and within which it can freeze generating outward pressure, it may be a similar issue to the lightweight blocks.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[lowCO2design]

Okay, I'm now officially snowed under with information.

I'll have to sift through all this - not for the first time - and thanks

I've stated on this and looked at the foam glas product - I've downloaded the brochures and I need more materials information.

Being able to withstand a load isn't the same as being durable, and if there are hollows that water can fill and within which it can freeze generating outward pressure, it may be a similar issue to the lightweight blocks.

Just check it out, I'm sure you'll find its the alternative to Quinlite that still allows your preferred traditional block/ cavity/ block construction.

 

[onq]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond online to this LCO2D.

I enjoy new areas of knowledge and I have been looking at this for two years now.

The important thing for me is to strike a reasonable balance and to do it in a manner that is cost effective and achievable.

Looking at some of the sealing details for intermediate floors I see them as a huge cost riser, but equally if people are going to insulate without sealing in a competent and compliant manner they are not doing so as effectively as they might.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[threebedsemi]

The new Part L really ups the ante to a large degree, and at least the RIAI are flagging the issue. There is very little other broadcasting of it within the construction industry as far as I can see. It really is going towards passive standards in a lot of areas, and ye olde award winning 'glass box' domestic extension is unlikely to be possible any longer.

Re. the RIAI training, I actually think €95 for four hours training/information dissemination is not too bad, as they do usually pack in a lot of info into those seminars. And there is a lot to pack into this one.

To be honest, though, without proper supervision and accountability re. the finished product, they can publish as many Part L’s as they want. They will just be ignored or adhered to in a piecemeal fashion by the majority of builders, certifiers and clients like the previous ones were.

www.studioplustwo.com

 

[lowCO2design]

Looking at some of the sealing details for intermediate floors I see them as a huge cost riser, but equally if people are going to insulate without sealing in a competent and compliant manner they are not doing so as effectively as they might.

what details are you referring to?

 

[lowCO2design]

The new Part L really ups the ante to a large degree, and at least the RIAI are flagging the issue. There is very little other broadcasting of it within the construction industry as far as I can see. It really is going towards passive standards in a lot of areas,

+1
there should be a balance achieved between embodied energy and the scale and size of the building, when achieving reg complaince and kwh/m2/y.

To be honest, though, without proper supervision and accountability re. the finished product, they can publish as many Part L’s as they want. They will just be ignored or adhered to in a piecemeal fashion by the majority of builders, certifiers and clients like the previous ones were.

+1
we need building control

 

[onq]

what details are you referring to?

The ones for sealing timbers into walls for example.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[onq]

Re. the RIAI training, I actually think €95 for four hours training/information dissemination is not too bad, as they do usually pack in a lot of info into those seminars. And there is a lot to pack into this one.

You've been conditioned into believing that.

A tenner on the door should be more than enough to pay.

The RIAI numbers and venue policy is a disaster, as if they're reaching pre-teens.

A dissemination of information like this should really be free given the annual fee MRIAI's pay.

There seem to be far too many people giving "conferences" who are barely operating above parrot level.

ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[Docarch]

I've often wondered why the DoELG does not pay for/subsidise this type of course or even pay people to attend these courses!!!

They write/update the Building Regulations and then basically ask architects (and other certifiers) to essentially implement the regulations, i.e. do the dirty work!

 

[Complainer]

I've often wondered why the DoELG does not pay for/subsidise this type of course or even pay people to attend these courses!!!

They write/update the Building Regulations and then basically ask architects (and other certifiers) to essentially implement the regulations, i.e. do the dirty work!

So Revenue are supposed to pay to train all the accountants and tax advisers too then? And the Gardai are supposed to pay to train all the lawyers too then? And the HSA are supposed to pay to train all the safety consultants too then?

Come on - a professional has to maintain their own knowledge for their clients.

 

[onq]

I think Docarch's point relates more to the number of times Part L has been updated over the past six years or so - its really getting ridiculous!

Pick a standard and stick with it and allow proficiency to working to one standard develop.

Are we still on gormless Gormley's timeline for Carbon Neutral - is that it?

Carbon Neutral hermetically sealed housing by 2013 wasn't that it?

All of us will be dead from lung ailments by 2020.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[Docarch]

I think Docarch's point relates more to the number of times Part L has been updated over the past six years or so - its really getting ridiculous!

Yes indeed, and a little bit of tounge in cheek!

 

[onq]

Gormley's agenda still hasn't been revisited has it?

This was drawn up when Irish building was going through a boom.
There was a logic to pushing it through then, but the underlying conditions have changed.

Now they're arguing that we need it to combat future proof the economy against fossil fuel prices.
€400 Billion worth of gas sitting off our coasts and all of us seem to be worrying about next year's fuel prices.

We should be getting Professor Nannites in Trinity to find a way to create hydrogen out of seawater cheaply and change the world.
The hydrogen fuel cycle has almost no carbon footprint, but it seems as though the vested American oil interests are holding this work back.

Lets develop the technology, get a world patent on it, and make trillions to re-float our ailing economy!

ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[Superman]

€400 Billion worth of gas sitting off our coasts and all of us seem to be worrying about next year's fuel prices.

Point it out and I'll buy it - I'll give you a 1% commission as well.

We should be getting Professor Nannites in Trinity to find a way to create hydrogen out of seawater cheaply and change the world.
The hydrogen fuel cycle has almost no carbon footprint, but it seems as though the vested American oil interests are holding this work back.

Lets develop the technology, get a world patent on it, and make trillions to re-float our ailing economy!

That really is nonsense.

 

[lowCO2design]

thats the end of the discussion on the new TGD L so??

Gormley's agenda still hasn't been revisited has it?
This was drawn up when Irish building was going through a boom.
There was a logic to pushing it through then, but the underlying conditions have changed.

what's is the problem with Gormley, he often seems to be the scape goat, have we forgotten that most of our building legislation is just drip feed from the EU/UK? - are you aware that Whales was the first to commit to zero carbon in use by 2016 (whether that happens is another story)

Gormley also tried to tidy-up our councillors that were making a mockery of our planning zoning, but now it looks like Hogan is going to erode that as well http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/News/MainBody,28537,en.htm (Draft Retail Planning Guidelines) - its turning into another Galway tent crew, instead of getting our town centres back to life!

Now they're arguing that we need it to combat future proof the economy against fossil fuel prices.
€400 Billion worth of gas sitting off our coasts and all of us seem to be worrying about next year's fuel prices.

we import 97% of all our fuel into Ireland, but don't confuse fuel security with climate change, and don't forget our EU commitments to reduce or Carbon emissions, again blamed on Gormley.

Buildings are one of the main culprits as regards co2 producing and we have a long way past energy in issue to consider. Buildings are of course the easiest to attack/reduce consumption in, as there is no coherent lobbying like the road hauliers, concrete federation and farmers etc. But the whole idea is we improve the comfort of our homes while, reduing energy consumption,with the idea that this will actually save home-owners money in the long run.

We should be getting Professor Nannites in Trinity to find a way to create hydrogen out of seawater cheaply and change the world.

its a similar argument many people use when austerity or legislative measures don't suit them. shouldn't we be trying to reduce energy consumption in buildings, even if we found the miracle cure for cheap fuel storage?

The hydrogen fuel cycle has almost no carbon footprint, but it seems as though the vested American oil interests are holding this work back.

is there a reincarnation as Jim Corr happening here?

Lets develop the technology, get a world patent on it, and make trillions to re-float our ailing economy!

yes please, but lets leave that to the 'Professor Nannites' and how about we use our skills as a designers to design out the issues that are causing comments like this:

Carbon Neutral hermetically sealed housing .... All of us will be dead from lung ailments

???

 

[onq]

Point it out and I'll buy it - I'll give you a 1% commission as well.

I just did point it out.

We are bringing foreign investment in to develop our natural resources - we should be doing this ourselves.

That really is nonsense.

You think that an economy based on the hydrogen cycle is nonsense?
I see it as the future base of a world economy, but each to their own.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.