IFSRA warns over sexed-up trackers!

Brendan Burgess

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Great news! IFSRA has issued its first ever warning about products issued by an Irish financial institution.

Eoghan Williams covers it in today's Indo


This really is great news. Irish Life's claims that IFSRA had raised no objections to its product were very disturbing. I got the distinct impression that the staff in IFSRA just did not understand the new breed of trackers. I still cannot understand how they don't strike down the Quadruple Growth Bond which never, ever gives quadruple growth.

Where does this leave Irish Life and ACC? Must they now communicate this warning to their customers? Should they now allow customers to withdraw from the products? Should they just cancel the products?

Where does it leave the Authorised Advisors and other intermediaries who have been selling the products for huge commissions? They must be open to claims of mis-selling if they don't bring IFSRA's warning to the attention of customers?

Brendan
 
Mixed message

BB, I would like to think Mary O'Dea's message was as forthright as you say. I am not so sure. Can we see anywhere what she actually said?

Disturbingly, in the Tribune she is reported as saying "geared trackers could be suitable for wealthy people provided they understood the risks".

This completely takes the sting out of her warning. Indeed I can see these words being actually part of the promotional literature for the next geared trackers!

The people who have fallen for these like to think of themselves as "sophisticated/wealthy" and people who understand and are prepared to take risks. This "warning" is in danger of actually heightening the appeal of geared trackers to this constituency.

What Mary O'Dea should have said unequivocably is that "GEARED TRACKERS ARE SUITABLE FOR NO-ONE, BUT NO-ONE"
 
Re: Mixed message

Press Release from IFSRA Saturday 22 November 2003

Consumer Director Highlights Dangers of Borrowing to Invest

‘Geared Trackers’ need careful assessment
The Consumer Director of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority today (Saturday 22 November) highlighted the dangers of borrowing to invest in equity markets. Mary O’Dea warned consumers to consider very carefully the potential for loss associated with loans offered to facilitate buying tracker bonds.

"The old adage that you should not invest money that you cannot afford to lose is good advice", said Mary. She urged consumers to assess very carefully loans to buy tracker bond products - ‘geared trackers’ that offer an opportunity to borrow funds to invest in equity markets. "These are risky products and consumers should ensure they fully understand what is involved, including all costs, charges and issues around how the tracker product is structured."

She highlighted the two main risks associated with this type of product as:

the risk of loss because of a slide in share prices in cases where the product does not carry a 100 per cent capital guarantee and,
the risk that the costs involved will be more than any return earned on the tracker. The costs involved include the interest on the funds borrowed and the charges levied by the product provider as well as any penalties imposed for early termination.
She pointed out that the ‘exit tax’ on any gain - currently 23 per cent - as well as the interest cost and the charges, must be taken into account in assessing the possible risk or reward involved in such investments. There is also the risk that interest rates may rise over the period of the loan, increasing the cost of the funds borrowed. An added complication is that these tracker products usually cap or limit the gain the consumer could achieve from any rises in share prices on equity markets.

While some trackers offer a capital guarantee, consumers should be aware that this may not cover the entire amount of the capital invested and may only be available where the tracker is held to maturity. Consumers should establish at the outset the level of cover provided by any guarantee. "Even in a best case scenario where there is a 100 per cent guarantee on the capital amount borrowed, there is no guarantee that the tracker will earn enough to cover the associated costs", said Mary.

Geared trackers may be more suited to high net worth consumers, who may benefit from these products as part of a portfolio approach to investment. The consumer should be able to assess whether the costs, risks and benefits involved are suitable to their particular circumstances.

"Consumers need to make well-informed and responsible decisions on any financial product offered to them", said Mary. "They should ask questions and get the answers they need before taking on any financial product so that they understand what they are getting into and recognise and accept the risks involved."

For further information on Savings and Investments consumers should contact the Financial Service’s Regulator’s Consumer Helpline: 1890 -777- 777.

ends-
 
Grand Larceny

Thanks, BB, for that posting.

It's as I feared, Ms. O'Dea's response is hopelessly short of the mark - she simply doesn't understand (or does she?).
"Geared trackers may be more suited to high net worth consumers, who may benefit from these products as part of a portfolio approach to investment. "
This is utter nonsense. Make no mistake, Geared Trackers are Grand Larceny, they benefit nobody but the brokers, lenders and providers who dreamt them up and, also, unwittingly the Revenue. 20% of the investor's investment goes to the broker. 20% goes to the provider/lender and 23% goes in needless tax. The customer is more than 60% out of pocket in charges and tax. This has absolutely nothing to do with risk and sophistication. This product belongs in No-one's portfolio. There simply has never been a worse rip-off!

Let me put an alternative interpretation to Ms. O'Dea's lack of understanding. Isn't it possible that she has made a monumental cock-up in being tricked to appear to endorse these products and whilst now trying to redeem herself she leaves open this outrageous justification that Geared Trackers may be suitable in a HNW's portfolio. IFSRA should be scrapped or else put somebody in there like Eddie Hobbs or even your goodself, BB, who can see through these ridiculous devices.
 
Re: Grand Larceny

Hi AA

I suppose that I was so pleased to see them do something about it, that I hadn't noticed that bit. Of course, Irish Life can now use it as an endorsement of their product. They were only marketing it to high net worth individuals only.

This, combined with their refusal to act on the Quadruple Bond, suggests that IFSRA does not actually understand trackers.

Brendan
 
These sexed up trackers haven't met their Waterloo because no one knows who IFSRA is!
 
sexed up trackers

I put money into one of these last week. I have read with interest all the discussion here over the last few weeks. A gamble on my part? Yes indeed it is. But so are equities generally. I just want to gear up my gamble, and I'm doing it without having the money to do so. I firmly believe equities are at a low point and will do very well over the next few years, so I'm more than happy to pay the extra charges that are alluded to here as I believe. What's the worst that can happen... I pay some interest charges... so what. I lost a lot of money in equities over the last few years so I consider this a far better gamble.
 
Re: sexed up trackers

Hi bravo

It's important to understand the difference between investing and gambling.

An investment has a net positive expectation. If you add up the sum of possible outcomes, you expect to make a profit on average.

A gamble has a net negative expectation. If you add up the sum of possible outcomes, you expect to make a loss on average.

Thus backing a horse is a gamble for the punter and an investment for the bookie.

Putting money in a unit linked fund or directctly in shares is an investment. You may lose or win, but over the longer term you expect to win.

Borrowing to invest in a tracker is a gamble. Under certain circumstances, you will make money, but, on average, you will lose money. Irish Life is effectively a bookie in this situation.

Brendan
 
Bravo

Here's an idea, Bravo.

Suppose you put the same money that you are prepared to pay in interest for the geared tracker into betting on the horses ...say follow the experts tips each day in the newspaper ... I can confidently say that you'll have more money after 5 years that you are likely to get back from the tracker ...and have a lot more fun as well.

Now here's an idea for product providers ...a new geared unit linked investment fund, which 'invests' in bets on horse racing, using the services of expert professional tipsters. The fund is unwound after 3 years, say. Sounds like just the investment for you, Bravo!

typo edited - Brendan
 
Gambling

Bravo,

Gambling on the stockmarket is perfectly available through such internet exchange services as BETFAIR.COM and for as little as 10 Euro.

The charges on BETFAIR.COM are 5% of any profit you make and there is no tax.

By contrast with a Geared Tracker you pay charges of 40% and tax of 23% NOT on your profit but on your TOTAL investment.

Bravo, you may just have time under Cooling Off provisions to exit your Geared Tracker and make a similar punt on BETFAIR.COM and save yourself 60% of your outlay.
 
Re: Gambling

Here is the original breaking of the geared tracker story from Niall Brady in the Sunday Tribune on 16 November which really explains it all:

 
Re: Gambling

20% of the investor's investment goes to the broker. 20% goes to the provider/lender and 23% goes in needless tax.

This site has sunk to an all time low level. Did any one of the 232 viewers of this post not think to ask for an explaination of this alcohol fuelled statement.

The smug wannabe advisors, that rule the site with an iron fist, have deliberately misled the unwashed followers once again because of their twisted misunderstandings of any product that is not an index tracker.

You owe it to your ardent fanatical Anti Adviser disciples to put them on the right road to financial ruination.
 
Anatomy of a Geared Tracker

Hello, JPTW, burp let me try and explain, jayz this wine is strong.

Punter pays 4,900 per anal, for the growth burp in a Tracker.

Company sets up an artificial loan of 100,000 and an artificial deposit of 100,000. Takes 1 percent on each side of this burp artificial arrangement that's 2,000 in charges on an actual outlay of 4,900. Tracker actually performs okay, returns 30,000 after six years. Punter only paid in 29,600 so he made a small profit, what's the burp problem?

Oops! I really must give up this drink, the 30,000 is taxed at 23%. So punter really only received around burp 23,000 a loss of 7,000. Company has made 12,000 and paid out 5,000 in commission and this Tracker actually did quite well.

Another bottle of wine and I will be investing in these things myself.
 
Anatomy of a Geared Tracker

..........or to put it another way.

12,000 = 20% of original investment AND

5,000 = 20% of original investment.
 
Ark Life

Hi Dogbert

I have deleted your post as the personal attack was unwarranted.

But the subject is clearly worth discussing, so I have started a for it.

Brendan