How the hell did Bush get back in??

Wake up

Just because the majority hold a certain view doesn't mean it is the right one. The Nazis were voted into power in Germany. Can we say that democracy had spoken and thus this was a good thing?
There are few enought truths in this world, but when we boil off all the nonsense there are a few things that we can say for certain - one of them being that we have to be good to each other and treat others as we would like to be treated.
It is so easy to sit here and postulate on the way of the world. Do the Bush supporters have the courage of their convictions - would they sign up for a term of service in Iraq if called upon to do so? Or are they happy for others to do the dirty work and they can then believe what their leaders tell them about it all without seeing it with their own eyes?
 
Trying to understand Piggy

No you never used the word peaceniks. I did. Because that is a good word for what you describe the majority of muslims to be.
You say its just a few thousand? But the BBC program mentioned earlier suggests its far more than that piggy because its potentially every young male muslim. That would be several million then, wouldn't it.

Are you trying to wriggle out from under the issue by digression into usernames? Thats weak.
Stick to the topic.

we have to be good to each other and treat others as we would like to be treated.
Click to expand...

Tell it to the beheaders.

are they happy for others to do the dirty work.
Click to expand...

America has a standing army. The people who join do so voluntarily. If every one of the Americans who supported GWB chose to 'do their own dirty work' (as you'd put it) then you would INDEED be able to call THAT a CRUSADE.

The Islamists on the other hand have no standing army, and no legitimacy, and they chose to 'do the dirty work' of their JIHAD in Madrid, and the WTC, and kidnapping and beheading.
Are you telling me you admire them for that?

I think you do.
Shame on you.
 
Re: Trying to understand Piggy

Are you trying to wriggle out from under the issue by digression into usernames? Thats weak.

No...I'm trying to figure out if you and ELCid are one and the same. You have every right not to tell me...but given that ELCid has repeatedly espoused rather alarming extreme views, which are now beginning to come across in your posts about Muslims I just thought you might lay it on the line as to how you really feel about Muslims.

Are you telling me you admire them for that?

I think you do.
Shame on you.

shnaek would be as well to ignore this comment. I'll say right now, without quibble, that I doubt very much he does admire any form of murder. I can't really see why you'd even suggest such an absurd thing.

Sorry for speaking on your behalf shnaek.
 
Re: Withdraw that outrageous assertion

Piggy, if you are to be treated with any credibility, withdraw that outrageous claim that the US is carpet bombing thousands of innocent civilians. How can you possibly believe that? Do you forget that the US, besides having its own standards, is actually answerable to Iraqis. Maybe they are puppet Iraqis but they couldn't possibly accept the wanton genocide of their fellow innocent citizens that you allege.

As with Asimov, I note that when I previously drew your attention to this outrage, your response was to accuse me of not playing by the spirit of the "names game". That is gobsmacking.

YD
 
Re: Withdraw that outrageous assertion

There's nothing outrageous about it. How many thousands of innocent Iraqi's have been killed by the coalition?

How do you think they were killed?


Posting under more than one user name within the same post is backing up your own views while appearing to be from someone else.
 
Re: Withdraw that outrageous assertion

Or perhaps you'd rather read about what really goes on in these wars - direct from the mouths of American soldiers.

[broken link removed]

This is the war we don't hear about over here.
 
Re: Withdraw that outrageous assertion

withdraw that outrageous claim that the US is carpet bombing thousands of innocent civilians. How can you possibly believe that?

Even Sky has reported this. Look, they're at it again.
www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13245928,00.html

Daisy-cutters and DU are not joke either.

The US is killing innocents, including children. That's what happens in war, and why war is so naughty.
 
Re: Answering the piggy

How many thousands of innocent Iraqi's have been killed by the coalition?
Click to expand...
I have already answered this - about 500 i.e. half a thousand. 500 too many in one sense, of course, but we are unfortunately a long way from a world were dictators are brought to heel and terrorists made to desist over a game of chess.
How do you think they were killed?
Click to expand...
The image you portray is of indiscriminate genocide. Carpet bombing is by definition indiscriminate and is used by the US against troop formations as in the first Gulf War, where the risk of collateral civilian casualties is either minimal or non existent. The vast majority of civilian deaths are I believe truly collateral to focussed attacks against military/insurgent/terrorist targets as approved by the interim Iraqi administration.
Posting under more than one user name within the same post is backing up your own views while appearing to be from someone else.
Click to expand...
Piggy, can I recommend that you advertise in the personal columns for a sense of humour.

As to the stories of individual US soldiers, why are you so prepared to accept these without question when you proclaim such a worldly wise disdain for mainstream reportage? Has Al Jazeera reported the "carpet bombing of 1,000s of Iraqi civilians"?

YD
 
Re: Answering the piggy

I have already answered this - about 500

That's just ridiculous. What do you base this figure on?

I suppose we shouldn't believe US soldiers. We shouldn't believe all the reports that come out of Iraq daily. If it goes against what you believe - that this is a nice clean war where only a few hundred people have been killed then I suppose there's just no point in taking any of it seriously.

Depleted Uranium!! What's that? That's just a figment of leftie imagination. Same with cluster bombs. XXXAnotherPersonXXX posts a perfectly reasonable link to Sky which tells a similar story. You just don't want to hear it.

I was going to post a link to a website earlier on and put a warning on it but decided it would be in extremely bad taste. It shows a picture of a young Iraqi girl being held in her fathers arms after bombing in Baghdad. Most of her limbs were blown off.

I'll tell you what Madonna - do you promise to come back here and apologise when it finally comes out just how many innocent Iraqi's were killed. Women and young children. Blown to small pieces. Soldiers told to light up civilians. Why would you even doubt this is going on when we now know what went on in Vietnam. As XXXAPXXX said, this is war. This is what goes on.
Will you come back here then and admit that you were wrong when, undoubtedly the true horror of what went on in Iraq begins to trickle out bit by bit?

BTW, that's one soldiers harrowing account fo what is going on in Iraq. There have been many, many more.
 
Depleted Uranium!! - that reminds me

Did any of you know that each 747-100 and 747-200 aircraft carried approx 1000kg of DU for airframe balance ?

All damn fine unless it gets hot when it is rather toxic.

Anyone remember an El Al cargo 747 that went down due to overloading when taking off from Amsterdam ?

Landed on a block of flats complete with full load of fuel. The area became a mini Chernobyl. Cancer black spot, deformed births The Lot.



By the way, a lot of you dont seem to understand what war is. How many of you were out of short pants during :

(a) Korea ?

(b) Vietnam ?




eDog
 
Re: Answering the piggy

Piggy - no problems on speaking on my behalf. It is a ridiculous comment and I laughed out loud when I read it.
I made my point and made it clearly enough. If others want to put some old rubbish in there and then say that I said that, I mean, what can I do about that? The same old crap went on during the witch hunts.

I must also comment on an earlier post by Rabbit who said
He is a brave man , in charge of a great country , in a world where cowardly countries like France will only sit on the fence and watch.
Click to expand...

I believe Ireland was the one sitting on the fence. France actually opposed the war, as it is entitled to do.
 
Re: Answering the piggy

Piggy, I am nearly twice your age so I am not as naive as you purport. Yes, war is horrible and even the unquestionably "good" wars such as WWII against the Nazis has tales of undescribable evil by even the White Hat Guys.

Abu Garhaib (sp?) was a big shock to me but in all this mess one has to retain perspective.

I'll tell you that, rather than apologise, if it transpires that America and its allies has wantonly commited genocide of 100,000 Iraqi innocents then I will change my mind and place GBW in the same monster class as OBL. I will also despair of the whole of the civilised world from Russia to the UK to France yeah even to Pakistan who are not raising a whimper against this genocide.

I suspect that the reverse is not true. That if it transpires that the levels of civilian deaths are much smaller than you seem to want to believe and that these were the truly collateral result of reasonable force against legitimate targets, given the circumstances, then I doubt whether it will change your view that GWB is an oilmongering war criminal one jot.
 
War

Piggy there is a very simple solution to this whole conflict.

The US defeated the Iraqi army militarily, fair and square.

The US President declared major hostilities to be over.

The US has allocated billions of dollars, and sent in the people to rebuild the country.

I firmly believe the US is not interested in stealing Iraqs oil, or in colonising Iraq. That is not the American way. They've paid for their oil all along and will continue to do so.
America wants to install a Western friendly DEMOCRATIC government in Iraq and then get the hell out of it. There are other fish to fry.

Meanwhile the insurgents, foreign terrorists and supporters of the ex-dictator, have carried on a guerilla war which is costing the lives of many of their innocent countrymen.

The SIMPLE SOLUTION is for them to recognise the war is over, lay down their weapons and go home.

If they continue to fight then they are utterly and completely responsible for bringing death and destruction on their own people.

Did you support the IRA bombing campaigns?
Do you think it aided progress to a United Ireland?
Do you think the terrorists in Iraq are likely to succeed where the IRA didn't?
If the Iraqi insurgents really cared about the death and destruction they are bringing down on their own people they would give it up.

Don't blame the US for whats happening. The time for blame is over and the time for solutions is here.
The Iraqi insurgency is not the solution...it is the problem.
 
Answering the piggy

Pig I think you're right, I think Asimov and Rabbit is the same, anyhow I've ignored both.
 
Re: War

Did you support the IRA bombing campaigns?
Do you think it aided progress to a United Ireland?

Like it or not, the IRA bombing campaigns did aid progress to a united Ireland. It mightn't have been the nicest way of doing things, but it was effective.
 
Bombing

We do not have a United Ireland.
You must live on a different planet!

Dan, I don't know who Rabbit is, but since there is now a requirement to register to post here I can't see how I can have two identities.
Are you so lost for a counter argument that this is the best you can do? Don't waste peoples time with such inanities. Thats Piggys job.
 
War

"I firmly believe the US is not interested in stealing Iraqs oil, or in colonising Iraq. That is not the American way. They've paid for their oil all along and will continue to do so.
America wants to install a Western friendly DEMOCRATIC government in Iraq and then get the hell out of it. There are other fish to fry.

Meanwhile the insurgents, foreign terrorists and supporters of the ex-dictator, have carried on a guerilla war which is costing the lives of many of their innocent countrymen."

Reading the comments put me in mind of the reports which Elizabeth I's Lord Lieutenants of Ireland were sending to London around 1490 that the Irish were savages with bizarre customs dressed in animal skins, eating their own young and devoid of law and culture. Though the purpose of Elizabeth's decimation of the Irish was to "settle" the land with Scottish soldiers who had fought for the realm in the European wars, and though in the circumstances "resistance" by the indiginous Irish was rather predictable, these efforts to stay alive and keep their farms was represented in the despatches as attacks upon the good progressive "civilisation". In Ireland for 500 years what were described by the Crown as "insurgents, foreign terrorists and supporters of the ex-dictator" (the High King of Ireland in this case) carried on a guerrilla war which has cost the lives of many of their innocent countrymen".

Might it have been better to simply (as is being suggested for Iraq) let Cromwell have the island as they had weapons and monarchy? Is the idea of such a response a true representation of basic human nature?
 
History

You gotta be kiddin, right?

Surely the difference is obvious?

The US has no intention of 'planting' Iraq with Americans!

I doubt if many Yanks would fancy the idea of giving up their rather comfortable lifestyles to go live in a s**thole like Baghdad. I know I wouldn't.

Must say I'm rather surprised at the ammount of support the IRA has around here!
 
History

The US has no intention of 'planting' Iraq with Americans!

I doubt if many Yanks would fancy the idea of giving up their rather comfortable lifestyles to go live in a s**thole like Baghdad. I know I wouldn't.

Must say I'm rather surprised at the ammount of support the IRA has around here!

Asimov - As an historic example of what is currently possible Great Britain colonised and subsequently maintained an astonishing amount of remote foreign territory - including India and vast tracts of the African subcontinent - with very small resources numerically through "hearts and minds" and enculturation - phrases frequently used in the media in relation to the coalition's occupation of Iraq.

The peasants whose lands were seized in 1600 were farmers, not IRA members or sympathisers. Suggesting that shopkeepers, businessmen and women, farmers, dentists etc. anywhere might have strong feelings of resistance on waking up one morning to be told they are now "ruled" by Washington is a reference to human nature and human response and is not an endorsement of terrorism in any place or time.

My posting was in response to the suggestion that the Iraqis are somehow responsible for the invasion of their country by the United States of America and the U.K.
 
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