How the hell did Bush get back in??

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A friend who lives in Atlanta posed the question which would be worse for America, 4 more years of Bush or someone else who was just as bad?
....it's academic now but it's still a hard one to answer.

Good post Michaelm; sums it up.

opinion direct from America

Today I received an email from an American friend. As aone of a rare species in the Midwest, a Democrat, the scale and depth of he disappointment at Bush's re-election was clearly evident. She implored nonAmericans to realise there are many, many normal, right-thinking Americans alive and well there. Forlorn, she expressed some hope that Hillary Clinton might renew Democrat hopes in 2006. I myself, for some of the reasons already expressed in this thread, think that's not cut and dried.

Re: .

It is true that Bush won a huge victory in the democratic election this week. It is also true that many people hate him. With Bush there is no room for a middle ground. He is not a diplomatic man. He says it himself - you vote for him and you know what you are voting for. His view is black and white. He does not seek to muddy his decisions with thought or meditation. He has a view and he sticks to it.
So the reason that he is so unpopular in many places is that it is known what he stands for and what he stands for isn't liked. Simple as that.
It really depends on what your view of the world is.
If you believe it is right to strike first, then you think like Bush.
If you believe that the UN is not worth continuing, then you think like Bush.
If you believe that there is a place for religious belief in the running of a country, then you think like Bush.
If you believe that Osama Bin Laden is not delighted to have Bush in the whitehouse, then you think like Bush.
If you believe that Global warming is not an issue, then you think like Bush.
If you believe in black gold, then you think like Bush.
And there are many more things I could add here. These are divisive issues, and unfortunately, as the debate between michaelm and N0elC has shown, there is no room for middle ground here.
Personally I have no time for the politics of fear, or for the pre-emptive strike. Neither were good in the playground and neither are good on the global stage.

Re: opinion direct from America

Personally I have no time for the politics of fear, or for the pre-emptive strike. Neither were good in the playground and neither are good on the global stage

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...

..which leads me to...did anyone catch the documntary on (BBC I think) on Wed night, called 'The Power of Nightmares'...basically depicting that Al Quieda are not the advanced long reaching organisation that the political powers would have us believe. As such it is the fear element that the US instills in people that drives the electorate....

ninsaga

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After 9/11, the Bali bombings, the Madrid bombing, etc etc surely it is wise to do what you can to gaurd your country against attack ? Otherwise, after the next atrocity, the same programme makers will be asking why did the government not do more to prevent it? You cannot have it both ways.

As regards the pre-emptive strike, yes it was that, but it was also a case of finishing the job that should have been finished a decade earlier - the first Gulf war.

Anyway, its great Bush got back in. He is the only one to stand up to / go after Bin Laden. He is a brave man , in charge of a great country , in a world where cowardly countries like France will only sit on the fence and watch.

BBC

did anyone catch the documntary on (BBC I think) on Wed night, called 'The Power of Nightmares'...basically depicting that Al Quieda are not the advanced long reaching organisation that the political powers would have us believe. As such it is the fear element that the US instills in people that drives the electorate....

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Yes, the program surmised that Al Qaeda was a fiction.

But it also postulated that what was really at work is AN IDEA. The idea that has been implanted in the minds (quote) of young male muslims everywhere (unquote) that they must support and partake in the global jihad against the West.

Now - that to me is a much more worrying analysis than the 'isolated Al Qaeda nutter' theory postulated by many commentators (and GWB).

It goes against the theory that fundamentalism in the Islamic community is rare or isolated.

So this TV program, which set out to defuse the fear of radical Islam...replaces it with a much deeper and more divisive scenario...that Al Qaeda is not responsible for the Teror...ALL muslims are!!

Gee WHIZZ!!

Re: BBC

It goes against the theory that fundamentalism in the Islamic community is rare or isolated.

So this TV program, which set out to defuse the fear of radical Islam...replaces it with a much deeper and more divisive scenario...that Al Qaeda is not responsible for the Teror...ALL muslims are!!

Actually, I don't know if that theory does exist (that fundamentalists are few and far between). There are over a billion Muslims on this planet. The vast majority are NOT terrorists. I don't think anyone doubts that Al Queda have a following in the Middle East (and abroad). The question is what is the rest of the world doing about it.
Do we help matters when we call this war a "crusade"? George Bushes word, not mine. How would that make you feel if you were Muslim - even a moderate one?
Carpeting bombing Iraq & Afghanistan- that's gotta help matters right? That'll shut those terrorists up for sure!

I deplore violence of any sort. It makes my skin crawl. But it's not that hard to understand the mentality behind a lot of it. We carpet bomb Middle Eastern countries and kill thousands of Muslims and then some radical religious freaks decide to murder our innocents in return...so...we decide we need to do some more carpet bombing just to make sure we stop them...and so on.

There's no doubt that terrorism is a threat. Both the Al Queda type and the George Bush type. The question is how do we deal with it. A simple man might say - I know, let's democratise the Middle East - whether they like it or not.

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Very good post shnaek.

Re: BBC

You're going to get into trouble for that one Piggy. Don't you know that trying to understand terrorists practically makes you one?
I think the "war" is a crusade between fundamentalists of two religions. Osama Bin Laden is trying to impose a fundamentalist muslim belief on the world through violence and the US under Bush is trying to impose a fundamentalist christian belief on the world through violence/politics. Both sides are not simply fighting a war on the principles of justice. Osama views the west as the biggest obstacle in his power struggle and GWB views the Middle East as a convenient foil for his plans. He didn't need 9/11 to happen to start his "crusade". He started it much earlier by appointing radical christians as the US representatives to the WHO, by appointing them to the Texas courts, by appointing the freak Ashcroft as his Attorney General etc.

A simple man might say - I know, let's democratise the Middle East - whether they like it or not.

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A simple man has already said this.....

I give up

Piggy, davido and all piggyists, you will be glad to know that I am giving up this debate FOR EVER.

The clincher has been the thrust of your posts in this thread which can be summed up as follows: "George Bush is every bit as bad as Osama Bin Laden".

Very balanced, I am sure, but absolute horse****, bull****, pig****; whatever type of manure you prefer to use.

To all piggyists, if you really believe GWB and OBL are equals in evil, have you really thought what the world would be like if they swapped places.

Re: I give up

The clincher has been the thrust of your posts in this thread which can be summed up as follows: "George Bush is every bit as bad as Osama Bin Laden".

Child like understanding of what was said.

terror

from pirates and emporers...
St. Augustine describes a confrontation between King Alexander the Great and a pirate whom he caught. Alexander the Great asks the pirate, "How dare you molest the sea?" The pirate turns to Alexander the Great and says, "How dare you molest the whole world? I have a small boat, so I am called a thief and a pirate. You have a navy, so you're called an emperor."

Re: I give up

There's no doubt that terrorism is a threat. Both the Al Queda type and the George Bush type.

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Osama Bin Laden is trying to impose a fundamentalist muslim belief on the world through violence and the US under Bush is trying to impose a fundamentalist Christian belief on the world through violence/politics

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With points like this are being made it's not hard to see why YD draws the conclusions he does. To equate George W Bush and Osama Bin Laden is offensive to over half of America and far more simplistic and biased than many here are accusing the American people of being.

Re: I give up

With points like this are being made it's not hard to see why YD draws the conclusions he does

YD rarely gets any point being made. He prefers to call everyone "piggyists" when he doesn't understand or want to try to understand where they're coming from.

To equate George W Bush and Osama Bin Laden is offensive to over half of America and far more simplistic and biased than many here are accusing the American people of being.

Except that I'm not equating the two. I'm merely trying to make the point that we view Muslim fundamentalist terrorism as terrorism but carpet bombing of thousands of innocent people as freedom and/or democracy.

Many Americans see George Bush as a terrorist btw.

Re: terror

I read some where once: "It's only terrorism if you don't have an airforce to deliver the bomb."

People all over the place a re so afraid of terrorists, why? There is a higher chance to die of cancer, or in a traffic accident, or unprovoked attack; even if you were living in New York in 2001!!!
I don't see a war on cancer, or crime, etc.

It's all fear politics at it's best, just like Nazi Germany. Here's a quote by Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials: "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

As the saying goes, all we learn from history is that it repeats itself.

Re: Trying to understand piggy

It is sad that we have lost YD for good, he made a lot of sense, a bit off the wall on occasions but one can understand his frustrations.

Except that I'm not equating the two. I'm merely trying to make the point that we view Muslim fundamentalist terrorism as terrorism but carpet bombing of thousands of innocent people as freedom and/or democracy.

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Piggy, I am sure this hangs together at some logical level but to me it reads extremely contradictory.

More seriously, your persistent assertion that the US is "carpet bombing thousands of innocent people" is grossly irresponsible and totally unsubstantiated.

Re: Trying to understand piggy

Doesn't it go against the spirit of these forums to use multiple users within one post?

Multiple users

True piggy, which is why posting should be restricted to registered users only, with each username being linked to a unique e-mail address.

This wouldn't make it impossible for users to circumvent the system, but it'd make it a whole lot easier.

It'd certainly cut down on the amount of trolling going on

Trying to understand Piggy

Actually, I don't know if that theory does exist (that fundamentalists are few and far between).

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Now hang on Piggy, you can't have it both ways!!
Which is it going to be? On one thread you tell us the majority of muslims are peaceniks, and on the next you say the fundamentalists may not be all that 'few and far between'.
Make your bleedin' mind up willya?

There are over a billion Muslims on this planet. The vast majority are NOT terrorists.

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No, but the vast majority of terorists are muslims!
Where are the peaceniks Piggy? Why aren't they out marching against militant Islam?

I don't think anyone doubts that Al Queda have a following in the Middle East (and abroad). The question is what is the rest of the world doing about it.

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Finding and killing them.

Do we help matters when we call this war a "crusade"? George Bushes word, not mine.

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Several points here.
I (as an average private western secularised citizen) do not see this as a CRUSADE. Nor do any of my friends or family. I don't think GWB sees it as a CRUSADE either, even though he trips over his tongue on a daily basis.

The word CRUSADE is a highly abused one. It can mean anything from going hard after drug dealers (a Crusade against drugs) to invading Jerusalem and killing all non-Christians (a Medieval Crusade).
Which do you think is the most common intent in the term nowadays? If you really think its the latter....you need your head examined.

As to how muslims interpret the word...I myself have big problems with the term JIHAD, which in reality canb be used in exactly the same ways as the word Crusade. It can have highly offensive Global meaning as well as a totally innocuous Personal meaning.
Since many muslims insist that the Personal form of the word is the one I should accept, then I expect them to accept the peaceful meaning of the word Crusade on equal terms.

Carpeting bombing Iraq & Afghanistan- that's gotta help matters right? That'll shut those terrorists up for sure!

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My God! Thats so weird! The hardline muslim on Today FM used the exact same phrase...CARPET BOMBING.
Even Matt Cooper pulled him up on that piggy. What a lie, and what a cunning and weasel way to attempt to poison the debate.
Absolute Rubbish!

The remainder of your comments just went downhill from there, so I won't bother even addressing them.

Suffice to say, rather like Sinn Fein being voted IN, and like the Nice Treaty being voted OUT (1st time), the election of GWB goes to show that your liberal left lie is not being swallowed by the majority of people round the West and that (wheteher you like it or not) the majority sees the world differently to you.

There are some interesting times ahead for the mainstream Left and Centre parties in the Western world.

Re: Trying to understand Piggy

Now hang on Piggy, you can't have it both ways!!
Which is it going to be? On one thread you tell us the majority of muslims are peaceniks, and on the next you say the fundamentalists may not be all that 'few and far between'.
Make your bleedin' mind up willya?

I thought I made my point quite clear. There are over a billion Muslims in the world. I never used the word peaceniks. There are undoubtedly a relatively large number of fundamentalists. I have absolutely no idea what that number is mind you. Perhaps a few thousand. Perhaps less. Who knows?

No, but the vast majority of terorists are muslims!
Where are the peaceniks Piggy? Why aren't they out marching against militant Islam?

Perhaps you could clear something up for me Asimov so that I can have some idea as to what your views are. Have you previously posted on AAM as ElCid?