How much do the banks owe the bondholders?

Has anyone got the numbers for this?

I am referring to the bank bondholders and not the holders of sovereign bonds.

Forget, for the moment, whether it is a good idea to burn them or not, just focus on the numbers.

I have been given these estimates as of the end of December 2010. The source is reliable,but they conflict with other figures

Unsecured and unguaranteed debt

Secured and government guaranteed debt

How much to the banks owe the bondholders?

Other sources of information

Anglo total: €6.9 billion
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=151408I think that the figures above are correct and that the €6.9 billion does not include the €6 billion of government guaranteed bonds issued in 2010.


Total Senior Debt of all the banks

There is about €15bn of senior debt in the Irish banks. "A good chunk of that debt is in BoI," says Donal O'Mahony, of [broken link removed]. "The Government is a majority shareholder in BoI."

Click to expand...

Total bonds of all the banks - senior and subordinated

The Government could save about €29bn if it imposed a 'bail-in' on bank bondholders.

Click to expand...

That suggests that there is €15 billion of subordinated debt which doesn't look right to me.



Source: Sunday Indo article 6 February 2011

On the Frontline last night, there was a graphic as follows:


I don't know why they did not give a figure for subordinated bonds.

The unguaranteed ones presumably date from before September 2008.

The guaranteed ones were issued since then with the benefit of a government guarantee.

The borrowing from the ECB is all secured on home loans or other bank assets.

Didn't the banks buy back some/all of their sub debt recently (at a discount obviously), which they funded by issuing guaranteed debt. Anglo definately did and I think AIB & BOI did the same.
This would mean that the unguaranteed sub debt has now been replaced with guaranteed debt.

Yet more conflicting statistics.

Séamus Coffey gives the following figures as of 12/ 2010 from a Central Bank source

Total bonds issued by "20 domestic banks": €64 billion

Owned by Irish residents: €33 billion


So if we burn 100% of the bondholders in AIB, Bank of Ireland, Anglo, Nationwide and the EBS, we could save €25 billion as a country.
If we burn 100% of the unguaranteed bondholders in.... we could save €15 billion as a country.
We we could get them to accept a 50% reduction, we would save €7 billion.

We might be able to achieve this without a default by buying the bonds in the market.

Here are the 20 Domestic banks
ACC Bank plc
AIB Mortgage Bank*
Allied Irish Banks plc*
Anglo Irish Bank Corporation plc*
Anglo Irish Mortgage Bank*
Bank of Ireland Mortgage Bank*
Barclays Bank Ireland plc
Danske Bank A/S
EBS Building Society*
EBS Mortgage Finance*
ICS Building Society*
Investec Bank plc (Irish Branch)
Irish Life & Permanent plc*
Irish Nationwide Building Society*
KBC Bank Ireland plc
Northern Rock plc
Rabobank Nederland
The Governor and Company of the Bank of Ireland*
Ulster Bank Ireland Limited
Credit Unions

On Prime Time last night, Michael Noonan suggested the following figures. Brian Lenihan didn't challenge the figures.

These figures were given on the basis that FG would not burn the senior debt issued with a government guarantee.

David McWilliams gives these figures in an article in today's Sunday Business Post:

(although he gets a total of €86 b)
.


I don't know where he gets these figures. The Anglo Promissory Note is €25 billion, not €36 billion. There is also €5 billion in promissory notes in Irish Nationwide.

No wonder the country is in a mess when there is no agreement on the sums we owe. Seems crazy.

Looks like they listened to you Brendan. Nice work

[broken link removed]

Wow!

I spent a lot of time trying to get this information together and now they publish it.

Brendan

I have set up a new thread for this now that the figures are published officially

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=152218