How many civil servants are there in Ireland?

[Ndiddy]

In the context of all the recent talk of private versus public pension advantages, etc, I was wondering how many public employees the state has?
Thanks

 

[dereko1969]

It's important to be specific, your thread title states "civil servants" whilst your post states "public employees" - which do you mean?
It's easily found using Google.

 

[huskerdu]

Loads of fun stats here about the civil service and the public service

Ops2020.gov.ie

 

[Ndiddy]

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. So when the newspapers are talking about the cohort who the new pension age increases don't apply to, is that the 335,594 public servants in the last post?

Are we low or high in comparison to other EU states or the UK?

 

[Leper]

The actual number of public/civil servants is as near to irrelevancy as the Republic of Ireland's chances of winning the forthcoming European Championship.

To make any kind of informed decisions we need to know (i) How many work fulltime (ii) How many work part-time and the hours they work.

You could have numbers working half time which would only equate to "whole time equivalent" of the number divided by 2. Then there are the people working less or more. The INMO (Nurses Reps) use whole-time equivalent numbers only whereas the HSE uses actual numbers, hence the basis for either not agreeing on anything. The PS/CS also use fulltime and part-time agency staff. Therefore, the numbers quoted above were probably out of date prior to their publication.

 

[Purple]

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. So when the newspapers are talking about the cohort who the new pension age increases don't apply to, is that the 335,594 public servants in the last post?

Are we low or high in comparison to other EU states or the UK?

You can add in Publicly funded bodies which have public sector type contracts.
We have quite a small public sector relative to other countries but until its ability to deliver services improves, through structural reform, there is little point in expanding it. It is worth noting that we spend a higher proportion of our budgets on wages than anyone else.

 

[Purple]

Leper, I thought that all numbers were full time equivalent although it is worth noting that a sizable proportion of GP's in Ireland work part time so when their union points out how overworked they are and how they don't have time to see their patients ask yourself if you could do your job in 18 hours a week. Then ask yourself why the State gives lucrative contracts to doctors without requiring them to do a full weeks work.

 

[Leper]

Leper, I thought that all numbers were full time equivalent although it is worth noting that a sizable proportion of GP's in Ireland work part time so when their union points out how overworked they are and how they don't have time to see their patients ask yourself if you could do your job in 18 hours a week. Then ask yourself why the State gives lucrative contracts to doctors without requiring them to do a full weeks work.

There is nothing in the figures to indicate that the numbers suggest full time attendance by any or all. This is one of my bugbears when I listen to politicians and others offering their version of what might be or what might not be of the full truth. The state is obliged to give part-time and fulltime contracts as necessary. It is not just doctors. These days in the general civil/public service there are many on less than fulltime contracts and the number is increasing by the week.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Leper, I thought that all numbers were full time equivalent although it is worth noting that a sizable proportion of GP's in Ireland work part time so when their union points out how overworked they are and how they don't have time to see their patients ask yourself if you could do your job in 18 hours a week. Then ask yourself why the State gives lucrative contracts to doctors without requiring them to do a full weeks work.

GPs are generally self employed contractors and aren't public servants.

To make any kind of informed decisions we need to know (i) How many work fulltime (ii) How many work part-time and the hours they work.

An educated guess would be that on average an 85% work pattern is observed. This is consistent with CSO data which shows public sector workers on average doing a 32.7-hour week.

So 336k public servants would be about 286k FTEs.

These days in the general civil/public service there are many on less than fulltime contracts and the number is increasing by the week.

CSO also show private sector workers doing on average 32.6 hours per week. So basically no difference in part-time working patterns between public and private sectors.

 

[Purple]

GPs are generally self employed contractors and aren't public servants.

Yes, but they get more money per patient visit for public patients than for private patients if they have a GMS list. They also get a very attractive quasi-public sector pension. As the State is paying them to provide a public service they should stipulate the minimum number of hours a week they must work as part of their contract. When GP's say they are too busy to see the patients they have but are only working half the time the solution is for them to do a proper weeks work.

 

[Leper]

Hi NRC - I cannot argue with you because we do not know the correct figures and it is likely that we will never know them as they change fast and often. Don't translate this as me agreeing or disagreeing with you. With respect everybody's educated guess will probably be different. Also 85% of what works what hours? Some work 12 hours or even less per week depending on grades. I can say as a base union rep that more people looked for representation on reducing working hours than anything else.

GP's as we know them are self employed and usually work from their own surgeries. Some NCHD's (Non Consultant Hospital Doctors) would work fulltime (usually not part-time) under contract in hospitals and are on a General Practitioner "course or scheme." Some self-employed GP's would be paid per visit to HSE hospitals. I know I am not speaking clearly, but as far as I am aware I am speaking the full truth.

I don't have accurate figures to hand, but my opinion is that 32.6 hours is well above the average hours worked by PS/CS people everything considered. I should add that while I was working I had difficulty in picking up the work of people who reduced their hours. I probably will get slated for this but from whee I sat, job sharing half-and-half was another caper that never worked 100% properly either.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Hi NRC - I cannot argue with you because we do not know the correct figures........but my opinion is that 32.6 hours is well above the average hours worked by PS/CS people everything considered.

They are CSO figures estimated from submissions from payroll departments in several hundred PS organisations.

How more "correct" can you get?

 

[Leper]

They are CSO figures estimated from submissions from payroll departments in several hundred PS organisations.

How more "correct" can you get?

I have no doubt that the CSO supplied these figures in good faith. However,some of those who supplied the CSO with figures do not have the same faith from me. The INMO and the HSE can't agree even of the amount of patients waiting on trollies at any one time never mind on the thousands working obtuse hours.