How do I know if a house I bought had a tenancy agreement?

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Cameo

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Hi
not sure where to post this

i recently bought A property with a view to renting it out (part of retirement planning, mad I know with political backdrop). Position of house was very unclear as to whether it was rented or not. So I got onto the rtb who advised over the phone that they had no record of a tenancy being registered. I then asked for confirmation in writing (and provided proof of ownership with the request). Response I get asks for details of tenant and my ppsn and a bunch of other info). Point is I am not going to rent the house until I can charge something close to market rent but rtb don’t seem to get this (by email whoever is communicating with me. Based on general feedback I’ve zero confidence in getting a satisfactory response from the rtb.

Any thoughts how to resolve?

ideally I want to rent the house out asap for close to market rent But can’t take the risk of renting out at a very low rate if there is one.
house has definitely been vacant for at least 16 months before I bought so plan was to hold off entering for Another 8 months if there was a tenancy registered previously.

any advice appreciated ?
thanks Paul
 
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Hi Cameo

When you bought the house, did your solicitor not ask the vendor for a statement that the house was not subject to a tenancy agreement within the last two years?

If the vendor gave you that, and you have no evidence of a tenancy agreement, then it's probably safe enough to rent it out at market rates.

Brendan
 
Cameo said:
ideally I want to rent the house out asap for close to market rent But can’t take the risk of renting out at a very low rate if there is one.
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Of course you can take the risk.

For this to go wrong, and number of unlikely event would all need to occur:

1. Old tenant would need to provide new tenant with documentary evidence of a lower rent.
2. New tenant would then need to take you to the RTB to give them the old, lower rent.

I think that number 1 is highly unlikely, given that even the RTB has no record of a lower rent. I think number 2 is also highly unlikely given that the typical tenant’s knowledge of tenancy law is pretty low and, even if they found out about a lower rent and wanted to claim it via the RTB you could always threaten to say well in that case I’m selling up.
 
Don't expect anything from RTB.

Why your PPS number is of any relevance to a search of tenancy under previous owner is beyond me; they are operating to a script.

If this really concerns you -

You can do a search of the register yourself. Take a screen shot. Do an archive search to see if you can find any evidence of it being advertised for rent. Ask the local neighbours / pub etc.
 
Thanks all for the responses, I’ll have another go at the rtb And assuming they don’t confirm there is a tenancy, I’ll rent the house out Looking for close to full market rent, I might get a better response if I suggest I am a tenant As suggested

i spoke to a letting agent who reminded the rtb’s database is inaccurate in any case, rtb really sounds like another quango mess based feedback from anyone who deals with them
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi Cameo

When you bought the house, did your solicitor not ask the vendor for a statement that the house was not subject to a tenancy agreement within the last two years?

If the vendor gave you that, and you have no evidence of a tenancy agreement, then it's probably safe enough to rent it out at market rates.

Brendan
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Vendor solicitor had no knowledge but selling agent said it had been rented out, but I am thinking it may have been an ‘informal‘ arrangement
 
Cameo said:
Thanks all for the responses, I’ll have another go at the rtb And assuming they don’t confirm there is a tenancy, I’ll rent the house out Looking for close to full market rent, I might get a better response if I suggest I am a tenant As suggested

i spoke to a letting agent who reminded the rtb’s database is inaccurate in any case, rtb really sounds like another quango mess based feedback from anyone who deals with them
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Of course the website is wrong, do you think landlords bother going back into it to change the rent to real rent if there's an increase or change.

Your question is easily answered, it's a compulsory question on the Objections & Requisitions on Title. And I know this as I'd to fill it in when I was selling including giving RTB numbers, name of tenants etc. In addition we had to sign a Declaration that each of our tenants were a) gone b) got their deposit back and c) that there were no disputes with the tenants. And one that there had been no disputes - I didn't bother about the fact that I'd taken RTB cases to Determination Order on the validity of the termination notices.
 
Bronte said:
Of course the website is wrong, do you think landlords bother going back into it to change the rent to real rent if there's an increase or change.

Your question is easily answered, it's a compulsory question on the Objections & Requisitions on Title. And I know this as I'd to fill it in when I was selling including giving RTB numbers, name of tenants etc. In addition we had to sign a Declaration that each of our tenants were a) gone b) got their deposit back and c) that there were no disputes with the tenants. And one that there had been no disputes - I didn't bother about the fact that I'd taken RTB cases to Determination Order on the validity of the termination notices.
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I sold a property which had a long term tenant living there (as an aside the sale coincided with them buying an house so worked out well for both sides) and tenancy registered with the rtb, I don’t remember giving those details, I just remember signing a declaration that I was selling the house when notice was served to the tenant.
 
When the property was sold to you, there ought to have been confirmation somewhere in the legal documents (the Contract for Sale and/or the responses to the Requisitions on Title alluded to by @Bronte above) that the purchaser was taking the property on a vacant possession basis or if there was a tenant in situ, on the basis of an existing tenancy.

Needless to say, a simple inspection of the property would confirm whether there was a tenant in situ - doubtless you will have confirmed this yourself by now.

Any queries to RTB are based on an assumption that any previous tenancy was registered with them - remember that not all landlords register their tenancies, despite the legal requirement to do so.

Once you’ve satisfied yourself on the above and concluded there was no tenancy, I’d say it’s safe to proceed on the basis that there was no tenancy in place.
 
Cameo said:
I sold a property which had a long term tenant living there (as an aside the sale coincided with them buying an house so worked out well for both sides) and tenancy registered with the rtb, I don’t remember giving those details, I just remember signing a declaration that I was selling the house when notice was served to the tenant.
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My solicitor and I work a bit differently so I was sent any of the questions to fill out myself. Your solicitor would have filled it out for you as the section has to be completed.

It's section 10 and it is very detailed with 10 separate questions which are subdivided into a's and b's. Dates, names of tenants, RTB numbers, deposit amounts, rent ................
 
I forgot to add, lord knows how my actual facts on that form correspond to what is in the RTB website. I'm currently dealing with Electric Ireland for one bill and losing the will to live. They want a date stamped photo with a newspaper from last month and I've told them I can't go back in time (I have a photo with a date of when the photo was sent to me). If they continue with this nonsense I'll leave them to it and they can fight it out with the new owner.
 
Haven’t logged on here for a while but a quick update, the rtb eventually did confirm in writing there was no tenancy registered in the previous two years. It did take a few calls and emails but they did help in the end so a slight positive from a landlords perspective.
 
Cameo said:
Haven’t logged on here for a while but a quick update, the rtb eventually did confirm in writing there was no tenancy registered in the previous two years. It did take a few calls and emails but they did help in the end so a slight positive from a landlords perspective.
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Thanks for the update. But it really changes nothing. It's quite clear from your other post it was rented. Just not registered. Now the chances of being caught are slim, especially as you yourself have not been able to find any knowledge of a previous tenancy.

In addition, I wouldn't trust one word of the RTB telling you there was no tenancy registered. I'd really like to see the wording of that reply from the RTB, I assume it's very cleverly worded to leave it sufficiently vague enough for wriggle room.
 
Bronte said:
Thanks for the update. But it really changes nothing. It's quite clear from your other post it was rented. Just not registered. Now the chances of being caught are slim, especially as you yourself have not been able to find any knowledge of a previous tenancy.

In addition, I wouldn't trust one word of the RTB telling you there was no tenancy registered. I'd really like to see the wording of that reply from the RTB, I assume it's very cleverly worded to leave it sufficiently vague enough for wriggle room.
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From checking our system , there has not been active registration at this dwelling in the last two years.

That's the wording from rtb, I take your point there is a residual risk but from my perspective I think I've taken reasonable steps to confirm the position.
 
Dr Strangelove said:
That’s a lot more categorical than I would have expected.

I would fire ahead and let at market rates.
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I've had absolute grief with Electric Ireland over an address. They were using the old barony or townland records. In addition the RTB has issues over certain addresses as well. For example

- Apartment 1, 90 Smith's Road
- Apartment B, 90 Smith's Road
- Flat 1 90 Smith's Road
- Flat 1, 90 Smiths Road
- 54 Limerick Road
- 54 Lower Limerick Road
- 54 Lr. Limerick Road
- 54 Limerick Road Lower
- 54 Limerick Road lr.

Presumably, with the new Eircodes that's solved a lot of this, but that I do not know. And I've one property that I split in two, it has one Eircode. Another single building has 3. One house that I sold, and created a flat in the garage, that had one Eircode. The house and flat were both RTB registered, but later when I decide it wasn't worth renovating the flat the registration lapsed. (ran into NPPR issues on that sale but roll on April 2025 and it's over).

RTB will then say

We didn't have active registration at X address, which you supplied us, but we did have a registration at Xa address which you did not supply us with.
The OP has done as much as he can and now has it in writing from the RTB so I agree he seems to be out the gap on this. And it would take some doing for a prospective tenant to find out it was previously rented.
 
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