RetirementPlan
Registered User
- Messages
- 429
The 'level of wilful self delusion' is around taking something as a matter of faith, rather than something to be based on factual evidence. No-one is suggesting that you name your many contacts who all told you the same thing about the terrible unions. It just seems curious that the conversation didn't get as far as 'What do you mean?' or 'Oh what are they doing now?' or anything specific. It is a matter of self-delusion to make a claim about union influence that is apparently to be taken as a matter of faith, without any factual evidence or examples.This is a discussion forum, not a court of law. I’m certainly not going to name people here without their consent so I can’t give specific examples.
I find it funny that those who spent their working lives in the Protected Sector, never open to competition, never having to worry about losing their jobs, are so defensive and so absolute in their belief that organisations which are not subject to the same market forces as organisations in the real economy are somehow just as efficient and lean, despite not being exposed to the very evolutionary forces that make their counterparts in the real economy try to be lean and efficient.
The self interest of wanting to have a job next week and next month trumps the self interest of doing as little as possible in the real economy. What replaces that in the Protected Sector?
The only thing impressive so far in your posts on this topic is the level of wilful self delusion on display.
Are you seriously suggesting that in organisations which have no risk of closure the presence of vested interest groups whose sole function is to get as much money for the least amount of work for their members will have no detrimental impact on the efficiency or quality of the products or services that organisation delivers?
Are you serious?
Do you know the level of collective arrogance that is required for a group of people to think that they are all altruistic enough and of sufficient moral fibre to be above the same human frailties as the rest of us?
Exactly..the PS solution to ineptitude and unemployability is promotionOf course there is. You just promote them! Problem solved.
MRIs are not available outside of 9-5 Monday to Friday.The only reason that the question can't be answered is that there's no reality behind - no facts or evidence behind your MRI claim. If unions blocked MRIs, then please give details of this. If you don't have anything beyond vague anecdote, it's not really very convincing.
Why could PS only mean public sector in a thread that frequently refers to both public and private sector and makes comparisons between both?
Statutory entitlements are the same for public and private sector employees. Contractual entitlements are different for different employers.
What's important here today is that we base future discussions on facts, not anecdotes.
No-one books sick leave. But have you reported these fraudulent employees at all?
If unions were holding the public to ransom, how current new public servants have a dramatically reduced pension scheme to pre-2013 entrants?
Funny how it wasn't so attractive that you went rushing in to avail of all these amazing benefits yourself though.
How odd to think that objecting to the exile of trade unionists is equivalent to supporting a ‘union stranglehold’.An unequivocal inference-you were equating the union stranglehold with liberty.
Anyway, enough inanity for one day
A quick search shows that you're wrong about MRIs.MRIs are not available outside of 9-5 Monday to Friday.
By the very nature of planned sick leave, it is virtually impossible to prove.
But don't let these obvious statements stand in the way of defending the indefensible.
This is a circular discussion full of slick deliberate obfuscation-I'm sure you serve the public sector well.
So perhaps the non-HSE owned hospitals have more success in offering a fuller service?Both St Vincents and Beaumont run MRIs to 8pm.
Cherry-picking two independent hospitals who offer MRIs outside of office hours doesn't prove anything. I have had MRIs is several HSE hospitals and appointments were only available 9-5pm and had a two-year waiting time.A quick search shows that you're wrong about MRIs.
Both St Vincents and Beaumont run MRIs to 8pm. SVUH is Monday to Friday with emergency cover available. Beaumont website isn't clear if it is limited to M-F.
So once again, you seem to be wrong on details, and completely missing any specifics about the union involvement in any such limitations.
How would sick leave be impossible to prove if they have booked it, as you said? If they've booked it, that's a clear record right there.
The best way to cut through any 'slick deliberate obfuscation' would be to present some specific facts about the role of trade unions in ruining health services, as you claimed.
Private sector absenteeism is irrelevant as it isn't directly financed from the public purse, unlike the public sector.I believe that absenteeism in the private sector pre covid was running at approximately 3.7%.
Given the appalling pressures the HSE has been under as a result of the pandemic particularly on the truly heroic front line staff I'm surprised the absenteeism isn't higher - apparently there were 2700 staff out with Covid a fortnight ago with cases rising by 900 a week and then of course there are the other circumstances outlined by you which also lead to absenteeism.
I would be amazed if as a result of the pandemic that the absenteeism rate hadn't risen in the private sector.
Tetchy..what're you on about?Jeez , ATC110 , getting a bit tetchy there !
My post was in reply to Peanuts20 who suggested that as a private sector worker absenteeism at 5% in the HSE was high but in fairness set out a number of extenuating circumstances to which I added to.
I think it more than reasonable to point out that given the difficult times that we are all enduring that absenteeism across all sectors could feasibly be the same and particularly in the HSE I'm somewhat surprised that levels aren't higher.
It is simply incorrect to suggest that significant numbers of HSE staff have refused to go to work , they simply worked from home as per Government guidelines.
Is my mind playing tricks our did you initially post that " huge swathes " of HSE staff refused to go to work ?
The pandemic and the response of front line workers has rightly generated huge amounts of admiration amongst the general populace and as I've said previously they are now bullet proof and will be for years to come.
The HSE including much maligned administrative staff have done a wonderful job in rolling out an enviable vaccination program undermined by our seemingly insatiable appetite for social interaction and a commonly held view that a double vaccination dose renders us bullet proof , the lax scrutiny of Covid certs doesn't help either .
There's a rich vein of hyperbole running through your post but the Strawman stuff about North Korea is just gas. I want our democratically elected leaders and the people they appoint to run the Health Service. I don't want vested interest groups with a mandate to act against the greater good and the public interest to stymie those people. Tell me again how that's like North Korea?(i) There is no level of wilful self delusion on display. You said it yourself, this is a forum and not a court of law. Long may people have their opinions and feel free to express them. But, if you have aspirations to mirror some North Korean leader then drive on.
Where did I suggest otherwise? More Strawman nonsense.(ii) Government departments are not going to close and I've never met somebody who wants them to. Just imagine our republic without Revenue Commissioners and Dept of Social Protection.
No, they don't, certainly not to an efficient and high standard.Those employed in all government organisations have a duty to the public and most deliver on it.
Yes, and it is managed out, not managed up.There are chaff and wheat in every organisation (even in yours).
I'm not suggesting that there should be competition. I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that the absence of competition removed one of the key drivers for efficiency in any organisation.(iii) No competition for Government Departments - Do you want another Revenue Commissioners set up to compete with the existing one? Our Revenue Commissioners may not have all the best practices, but mainly they do the best available.
So when have they ever driven higher standards? When have they ever not looked for more money when they thought there was an opportunity to get it? When have they ever accepted higher standards and more efficient work practices without looking for more money?(iv) Newsflash! Purple - Unions are not there to get the most for their members and have them do the least. That is the bar room spoof of somebody who is blatantly guessing and spewing out something after twenty four pints of flat cheap lager.
No, I want them to stop hurting the sick and vulnerable. Ideally I'd like to see them representing vulnerable and low paid people but there's no money in that for them. They are a cohort of vested interest groups taking money from the State for middle-class and upper middle-class employees in the protected sectors of the economy which should go to those who actually need it. Every time I hear them bleat and snort on the TV or Radio I have a mental image of the last few pages of Animal Farm.(v) But, keep it up. Like I have often said much of your posts recruit many people to the trade union movement. You appear to want trade unions just to die. Don't worry unions are losing members and the recruitment of new members is getting more difficult (probably their biggest threat).
Another Strawman argument.(vi) Let's say Trade Unionism dies in Ireland and no representation exists for management or staff. How long do you think it will be before genuine chaos erupts?
Yet I can talk about the Lab Technician from Nigeria in a Dublin Hospital who is astounded by the waste, the work practices, the over staffing and the antiquated IT systems.(vii) I can honestly say having spent most of my working life in the Civil/Public Service and having spent most of that time as a low level trade union representative conditions improved for my colleagues and work practices and output improved for the employer. (Remember what I already said about win/win). Everybody who asked me to represent them I would have ensured had a genuine case for representation. I flew no kites and suffered no fools in either management or staff. But, I am not crass enough to say that I haven't seen kites flown or fools flowing in management and staff.
Are you suggesting that people lose their job in the State Sector for being incompetent and/or lazy?Again, your information seems to be about 20-30 years out of date.
You're probably wasting your time looking for facts from someone who proposes exiling trade unionists.Do you have any facts to hand to back up your assertions - very few that I can see .
Do you , for example , have anything to back up your assertion that those working from home were effectively skiving ?
I have little doubt that Unions representing Public Sector workers will seek increases next year and I think a reasonable compromise will be negotiated without any threat of industrial action and it should be interesting to see what pandemic bonus the Government pays to frontline workers for their heroic work .
And again we can agree that the public have placed frontline workers on a pedestal although for different reasons rather I think it's from admiration rather than immaturity.
Again I ask did you initially post that "Huge swathes " of HSE staff refused to go to work or am I imagining things ?
Worth noting that when you look at the numbers, Covid has only added 25% or so to the overall abseenteeism figures. At times it did hit the 50%+ mark on the overall numbers and I would expect that to rise again. So Covid is an issue, but not the only issueJeez , ATC110 , getting a bit tetchy there !
My post was in reply to Peanuts20 who suggested that as a private sector worker absenteeism at 5% in the HSE was high but in fairness set out a number of extenuating circumstances to which I added to.
I think it more than reasonable to point out that given the difficult times that we are all enduring that absenteeism across all sectors could feasibly be the same and particularly in the HSE I'm somewhat surprised that levels aren't higher.
It is simply incorrect to suggest that significant numbers of HSE staff have refused to go to work , they simply worked from home as per Government guidelines.
Is my mind playing tricks our did you initially post that " huge swathes " of HSE staff refused to go to work ?
The pandemic and the response of front line workers has rightly generated huge amounts of admiration amongst the general populace and as I've said previously they are now bullet proof and will be for years to come.
The HSE including much maligned administrative staff have done a wonderful job in rolling out an enviable vaccination program undermined by our seemingly insatiable appetite for social interaction and a commonly held view that a double vaccination dose renders us bullet proof , the lax scrutiny of Covid certs doesn't help either .
Maybe people in the private sector aren't taking enough sick days, and they're coming in when they're sick because they're scared of losing their jobs. Hard to say really.Worth noting that when you look at the numbers, Covid has only added 25% or so to the overall abseenteeism figures. At times it did hit the 50%+ mark on the overall numbers and I would expect that to rise again. So Covid is an issue, but not the only issue
However there is a stubborn level of around 4.5% in relation to non-Covid which I would argue is still relatively high and some of the higher numbers are in non-patient contact areas.
I'm definitely wasting my time trying to reason with public sector union apologistsYou're probably wasting your time looking for facts from someone who proposes exiling trade unionists.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?