I think this is the important point, balance. In most organisations you have 3 competing stakeholders (1) The Customers, (2) the Organisation, (3) the Workers.I think there is aa need for Unions in the Public Sector. I just don't think the power balance is right.
I'm not sure who'd be taking photos for a disabled person's housing adaptation grant application?The application form doesn't require any photos, just details of the house, doctor's report and possibly an OT report to validate the need. When works have been completed, there is a final inspection by a Council engineer or housing technician, who then submits a report. Maybe the year-long delay in approval of grants is because the local authority tend to run out of budget for these grants? Again, it's hard to see the relevant of blaming any union here.I think there is aa need for Unions in the Public Sector. I just don't think the power balance is right. It's not that Unions can change things but they stymie reform and delay change. In any organisation with 120,000 employees there will be scope for rationalisation. There is massive duplication of process all over the State Sector and within the HSE in particular. The problem is that because Public Sector employees in effect can't be made redundant it is not possible for those in charge to manage their most valuable resource, their people, to give the greatest benefit to those who consume their services.
I know two nurses who left here to work in London because of the frustrations of working in our grossly inefficient health service.
I know a woman who moved back to Ireland from England having worked in their health service. She assesses houses for grant supports for special needs children, hoists, lifts, wet-rooms etc. In England she used a Tablet, taking photo's and filling in the details on-line. She then emailed it to her boss for approval and the work was done. She was audited each year and knew she would be sacked and criminal charges brought if she was fiddling the system.
Back here she takes photos on her phone, emails them to herself, prints them out and types up a form which then goes through 2 committees before the grant is approved. She said the overhead costs are more than three times as high here than in the UK and it takes up to a year longer to have the grant approved. She asked if the system could be changed and was told to shut up and do her job. That's the sort of waste that needs to be addressed but it would involve reducing numbers, laying people off.
I think we have been down this road before. It is unfair to blame external IT providers / management consultants / accountancy firms in this case. Basically, the HSE went ahead with PPARS despite a recommendation that its scope and value for money be determined beforehand. See post # 89 on this thread https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/hospital-trolleys.201798/page-5#post-1506204.The Payroll debacle was championed by one of our best know accountancy firms in the private sector and they got it spectacularly wrong.
From the form you linked;I'm not sure who'd be taking photos for a disabled person's housing adaptation grant application?The application form doesn't require any photos, just details of the house, doctor's report and possibly an OT report to validate the need. When works have been completed, there is a final inspection by a Council engineer or housing technician, who then submits a report. Maybe the year-long delay in approval of grants is because the local authority tend to run out of budget for these grants? Again, it's hard to see the relevant of blaming any union here.
Nothing to do with what I was talking about.There is indeed an issue about how mobile phones are being used right across public and private sectors, in Ireland and abroad. In most organistions, mobile phones are used for corporate email/calendering, actual phones calls, and other apps which run in a separate domain, kept totally separate from the corporate email for security reasons. This doesn't make best use of phone facilities like the camera or GPS. If you choose to bring the mobile phones inside the corporate domain so that apps can use cameras and more, you'll probably have to lock down all other apps, to prevent the user loading up software that would breach the security of the corporate domain. This is a very common problem, nothing to do with an Irish public sector limitation.
If you can't pick the people you want to keep and get rid of then you aren't managing them. Blanket hiring freezes are way too blunt an instrument. There is certainly great mobility of labour in the Civil Service but the further you get away from that the worse it gets.The 'can't make people redundant' isn't really the huge problem that you think it is. There is steady turnover within the public servicing and lots of ongoing recruitment. If there were opportunities to save manpower by reducing overall numbers, it would be fairly easy to achieve this through natural wastage by putting a brake on recruitment for a time, as tends to happen during times of government budget crunches. Staff are frequently allocated and reallocated based on needs. The availability of online support for the big public facing organisations like Revenue and DSP has resulted in large numbers of staff being reallocated from public counters to other services. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
I think that's a key factor. If tow health boards merge then they only need one set of non-customer facing administrative staff. Maybe a slightly larger set but basically one set.Maybe this stuff is just hard, very hard, imaginably hard given the size and history of the organisations, the incessant consumer demands, the ever changing landscape, the technology developments and associated cost. It's easy to blame unions, but if they were the huge barrier being claimed here, it should be fairly easy to produce examples of the kinds of scenarios where unions have been the barrier to progress.
Absurd analogy. PS unions are preventing reform and efficient service delivery.I remember a set of European nations went down this route in the 1930s.
I did that in my original comment.Yet again, it would be great if you could give some specific examples
In all fairness, you didn't provide any specifics in your original comment. You mentioned something about MRIs in hospitals, so please clarify what MRIs in what hospitals you are talking about here?I did that in my original comment.
If you want another, look at the Leinster House printer fiasco. The staff were refusing to be trained in on how to operate the said printer unless they received a pay increase for "upskilling".During the working day. To operate a printer..
It's too farcical for Father Ted
What is 'PS'? We're dealing with public sector and private sector here, so PS isn't really helpful.PS unions have no useful purpose considering the various protections/benefits enshrined in law afforded to all PS employees.
If your friend is an OT, then she is a private contractor. Her phone, her app, her email is all her responsibility, no-one else's. I'm not sure why you're blaming public sector unions for the poor technology decisions of a private sector contractor.From the form you linked;
Occupational therapist assessment: An occupational therapist (OT) will need to assess you if you are applying for any of the following: l a big change to the use of a room in your home; l a stair lift; l an extension. This is to make sure the right work is done in the home to suit your needs.
It's the reason why many organisations who care about protecting their technology infrastructure aren't getting full potential out of mobile phones.Nothing to do with what I was talking about.
That's not redundancy. Positions are made redundant, not people. You don't get to pick your favourites in a redundancy situation. Hiring freezes are indeed a blunt instrument. Natural wastage happens all the time, so if the approved staffing numbers for any organisation are reduced, they'll most likely have little difficulty in achieving this.If you can't pick the people you want to keep and get rid of then you aren't managing them. Blanket hiring freezes are way too blunt an instrument. There is certainly great mobility of labour in the Civil Service but the further you get away from that the worse it gets.
No, she's a HSE employee.If your friend is an OT, then she is a private contractor. Her phone, her app, her email is all her responsibility, no-one else's. I'm not sure why you're blaming public sector unions for the poor technology decisions of a private sector contractor.
Yep, and if 20 people are performing a role but you only need 15 you keep the best 15. You do if you are running an organisation properly.That's not redundancy. Positions are made redundant, not people.
No, you pick the best.You don't get to pick your favourites in a redundancy situation.
It's about keeping the best people for the job. The best people don't just embrace change, they drive it. Maybe it's just the people aren't good enough, which is not the Unions fault. Is that what you are saying? They are all just pencil pushers operating at the lowest common denominator so the best is as bad as the worst? Bloody hell, that's depressing!Hiring freezes are indeed a blunt instrument. Natural wastage happens all the time, so if the approved staffing numbers for any organisation are reduced, they'll most likely have little difficulty in achieving this.
1. You're right PMU we have been down this road before and again I kept quiet back then because there was no point in arguing as many posters then just blatantly refused to inflict any blame the private company. I found that unbelievable and consequently backed out of the thread not bothering to argue with those who were just tied in to something like "It's the private sector and it could do no wrong."I think we have been down this road before. It is unfair to blame external IT providers / management consultants / accountancy firms in this case. Basically, the HSE went ahead with PPARS despite a recommendation that its scope and value for money be determined beforehand. See post # 89 on this thread https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/hospital-trolleys.201798/page-5#post-1506204.
I'm dying to hear how the unions ruined your local council depot!There's a council depot near where I work where all the l
HSE have no role in housing grants for people with disabilities. The grants are provided by the local council, based on an application form signed off by their doctor and possibly a privately engaged OT.No, she's a HSE employee.
What I'm saying is that you called for redundancies. There is a legal definition of redundancy in Ireland. It applies to a post, not a person. You don't get to pick and choose who gets redundancy. It is the person in the job that no longer exists that gets redundancy. That applies to all organisations, public and private, unionised or not.Yep, and if 20 people are performing a role but you only need 15 you keep the best 15. You do if you are running an organisation properly.
No, you pick the best.
It's about keeping the best people for the job. The best people don't just embrace change, they drive it. Maybe it's just the people aren't good enough, which is not the Unions fault. Is that what you are saying? They are all just pencil pushers operating at the lowest common denominator so the best is as bad as the worst? Bloody hell, that's depressing!
There's inefficiencies in all organisations, public and private, large and small, unionised and not.I have yet to talk to anyone working in a large State organisation, Bank or Financial Services company who doesn't complain about inefficiency. I have yet to talk to anyone who wants see see improvement and change who doesn't think that Unions are part of the problem (just as any vested interest group would be). I think those who champion the Unions as they are currently constituted are the ones who know they are part of the problem. Nothing I've read so far on this thread, or the others like it on AAM, have done anything to convince me otherwise.
In the specific case of the Health service I consider the people who run the Unions to have blood on their hands.
Yes but efforts to improve by addressing issues/errors when they arise are normal in the private sector, the exception in the pubic.2. "Some if not all public sector payroll is still breathtakingly incompetent." - This is true of both the Public and Private Sectors. Ask anybody with problems with Revenue and Social Welfare.
Thank you for that.3. Welcome to the Public Sector, I'm sure it will be all the richer for your presence and experience. (not sarcasm)
It was signed off locally months ago, and passed to the Dept for sanction. The sanction came back from the Dept in July. The contract appointing me to the new role came from the Dept in August. I took up the new duties at the end of Sept. I will let you know when I get paid.4. In September you received a pay rise for new responsibilities and haven't yet been paid. All pay rises must be "sanctioned" after agreement and likely this didn't happen during September (and perhaps October). During September payroll for October would largely have been prepared and you were never going to receive your pay rise by November. I would bet you won't get it in December either, It's likely you'll get your pay award early in 2022 and perhaps later the arrears due.
For the record:- Centralised Payroll is only a tool of the organisation. The people there can only pay as per instructions from elsewhere.
Do you enjoy asking spurious questions which you know can’t be answered?so please clarify what MRIs in what hospitals you are talking about here?
Good griefThe trade union insisted that proper risk assessments were doneThere's certainly no reports that they got extra payments, and the printer is up and running now.
Ah nice chicanery thereIt is understood that the union is seeking additional payments" which wouldn't exactly be a sound basis for decision making to me. Maybe they did ask for extra payments or maybe they didn't.
Empirical day to day living is the evidence.So again, it seems that your claim that "are solely responsible for preventing efficient service delivery" has no basis in fact.
Considering the title of this thread and the nature of the discussion, it only could mean public sector, which you know full well.What is 'PS'? We're dealing with public sector and private sector here, so PS isn't really helpful.
And what protections or benefits for public sector staff are 'enshrined in law'? I know of some benefits that are 'enshrined in contracts', and some that are 'enshrined in agreements' but not enshrined in law.
How do you think those benefits came about, btw? Maybe because of decent trade unions? Your argument is a bit like saying that we didn't need to fix all those computers in 1999 because we didn't have many problems at Y2K. There's a reason WHY we didn't have many problems at Y2K.
The unions represent their members so it’s not just them that have blood on their hands but the individuals who make up the membership.In the specific case of the Health service I consider the people who run the Unions to have blood on their hands.
I’m sure the ‘30s dictators had their justifications for persecuting trade unionists.Absurd analogy. PS unions are preventing reform and efficient service delivery.
The purpose of the public sector is not to discommode the general public.
PS unions have no useful purpose considering the various protections/benefits enshrined in law afforded to all PS employees.
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