Head shops and legal high/drugs

R

RMCF

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I have listened to a lot of debate on the radio recently (both Joe Duffy and Matt Cooper shows) about these shops and how their legal drugs have affected both individuals and the community in general (with anti social behaviour), and interesting to see that the owner of one has been shot and seriously injured in Derry today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8484013.stm

Is this taking it too far?

After all, they are still legal. The Govs makes tax off them just like alcohol and cigarettes.

Train of thought is that these legal highs are taking money away from the real drug lords and they aren't happy. Wouldn't be surprised if we see similar shootings in Ireland in the future (thats if the hardcore drug men don't already own the head shops).
 
RMCF said:
The Govs makes tax off them just like alcohol and cigarettes
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Indeed it doesn't. I don't think there is any excise on these products - just VAT. The huge margins on these products mean that it would be feasible to slap a large excise duty on them - but that might be seen as in some way endorsing their continued sale, when the debate on the matter is very much in its infancy. It's a tough call for the state.
 
I shouldnt have used the word 'tax', I should have said theat Gov makes money off these things. If its VAT it comes thru, then its VAT.

But still legal, whatever way you look at it.
 
I'm not sure what the issue is here. Do you think these drugs shouldn't be legal?
It'll be very hard task indeed to ban such drugs, because the labs slightly change the make up, and the whole legal process starts again.
It's possible to get 'high' on lots of chemicals, like glue, alcohol, thinners etc. We can never make all that stuff illegal.

As a side note, anyone that ever tried BZP (aka party XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX), would never again bother with head shops. Unless they're insane!
 
The point I was trying to raise is that this subject has been getting a lot of media attention in Ireland recently and a shop owner has just got shot in IReland for selling these legal drugs.

Nothing more, nothing else.
 
gebbel said:
Some of the stuff they sell gets you high.
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While this may be so,

gebbel said:
Add a lot of alcohol and a few angry young men to this and what you get is trouble.
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If you have alcohol and angry young men in the mix you may have trouble anyway, without adding in anything else that makes you high.

Ive noticed a couple of these shops in my local area recently, have never gone into one (although I do WANT to go in and have a nose around but the misted out glass on the window puts me off, Im half afraid if I go in Ill come out a strung out heroin addict - except on some legal stuff and not heroin - ok joking, but you know what I mean :))

Ive not spoken to anyone who has tried anything from any of them except something called 'smoke' which (i think) is a legal substitute for hash and the consensus on that seems to be that its fine, its legal and its not a big deal - I never asked if there were any nasty after effects etc...

The people who did tell me about 'smoke' said that they preferred to go the legal high route as it saved them meeting dodgy characters in dark alleyways to get some illegal stuff for what they considered a harmless activity - a couple of spliffs while watching a movie.

I would think that if the dodgy characters in dark alleyways are losing business because of these head shops there is certainly a danger that they would retaliate against the owners of these shops.
 
truthseeker said:
Ive not spoken to anyone who has tried anything from any of them except something called 'smoke' which (i think) is a legal substitute for hash and the consensus on that seems to be that its fine, its legal and its not a big deal - I never asked if there were any nasty after effects etc...
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It's hard to gauge as I don't know the extent of media "concern" or media hyperbole.

The one aspect for me is the lack of regulation. Things may well be sold as a "legal" high, but there's no regulation of their safety or effect. I think that's a genuine concern.

The other aspect that is also of concern is the front line workers within drug rehab, etc and their increasing concern at the numbers of people they're dealing with who are suffering effects and ill health as a result of these legal highs. The problem is without any form of study we don't know proportional numbers etc.

The last thing is that with even a basic knowledge you could root around in your mam's toiletries bag or the garden shed and find a 101 ways to get a high. The difference is that these products are not sold on the basis of being a legal "safe" high.

We know the limits and dangers of alcohol and cigarettes. It's fair to say that you enter into those at your own informed risk. We know nothing of the nature and risks of these products.
 
There were pictures in the paper of guys queuing at one shop at 1 in the morning to get something akin to cocaine. I cannot understand why off licenses have to close at 10 yet shops selling 'legal' drugs which contain god knows what can stay open - seems ridiculous to me. They should surely be subject to the same laws as the off licenses.
 
Latrade said:
It's hard to gauge as I don't know the extent of media "concern" or media hyperbole.
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I saw a piece on tv earlier in the week that seemed to be full of doomsday warnings about the effects and how bad the chemicals were for the body etc...but what struck me was that it was all based on observation, they didnt speak to one person who had tried anything themselves, nor did they speak to one medical person who could confirm that they were seeing cases in hospitals as a result of usage nor did they speak to any front line drug rehab workers. Personally I felt it was a bit of a scaremongering piece with no hard evidence about anything (it was based on an ex junkies opinion of legal drugs and a youth worker who claimed that he had seen a young guy stoned for 3 days after the guy had tried 'something' from a head shop).

I agree gebbel, lack of regulation is a worry.

Id be holding off any kind of opinion until I could form an opinion based on hard information and fact. Right now the sum total of my knowledge of this stuff is the reported experiences of a couple of neighbours about 'smoke', what I perceived as a scaremongering tv piece and the visual of a couple of these places opening locally with misted out glass.
 
Latrade said:
The one aspect for me is the lack of regulation. Things may well be sold as a "legal" high, but there's no regulation of their safety or effect. I think that's a genuine concern.
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+1

Not a world of difference between buying this stuff and 'dodgy gear' off the street really.
 
What I got annoyed with is that the Government is going to set up a committee to look in to these shops.
Drugs for animals have better regulation in this country.
 
truthseeker said:
nor did they speak to one medical person who could confirm that they were seeing cases in hospitals as a result of usage
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There was a consultant from the Mercy hospital in Cork speaking on The Last Word (I think) last Thursday or Friday. He said that they have seen an increase in the number of people presenting themselves with issues relating to usage. He gave a figure for the number of cases that he had seen in the previous week - which I forget.

Two of his main concerns were mixing usage with alcohol and also the difficultly of treating patients when there is no knowledge of what these substances actually contain.
 
Prime Time did a piece on this issue this week. It is illegal to sell these products as drugs as they have not been certified for human consumption. Officially speaking, these shops sell expensive "bath salts" and "exotic plant food" (to quote the shop owner interviewed) which are not for human consumption.
 
I saw an acquaintance go through hell one night after taking 'party pill's' (BZP) from these shops. Man in question is educated, mature and wanted to see what the fuss was all about. The end result was not pretty (panic attacks, anxiety, palpitations and could not sleep).

I think everyone has the freedom of choice and if there are no negative repurcussions with these 'legal' shops then so be it. Like alcohol and other acceptable substances (ciggarettes for example) , some people can handle it, some people can't.

My biggest concern with these shops is that there is a very naieve preconception that if they are legal then the effects must be safe / gentle compared to illegal drugs. This is not the case at all and people that are curious should be made aware of it.
 
Not a world of difference between buying this stuff and 'dodgy gear' off the street really.
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If I had to choose, I'd rather the dodgy street stuff. At least most of this has been thoroughly tried and tested.
I saw an acquaintance go through hell one night after taking 'party pill's' (BZP) from these shops. Man in question is educated, mature and wanted to see what the fuss was all about. The end result was not pretty (panic attacks, anxiety, palpitations and could not sleep).
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Your acquaintance got off lightly if it was only one night.

I couldn't sleep for three days, felt like throwing up and wanting to urinate the whole time. Longest three days of my life. BZP seems to slow down time as well. Four hours in, I started hallucinating. Like the worst hangover you've ever had, but you can't sleep it off. I can't see what the positives were
I seriously underestimated it, and thought it was going to be like caffeine tablets. Anyway, it put me off for life.

Tip: always do your research!

Someone else mentioned
Should they be banned? Probably. Some of the stuff they sell gets you high. Add a lot of alcohol and a few angry young men to this and what you get is trouble.
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Never mix alcohol with any of this stuff, and never take more than the 'recommended' dose. In fact, never take BZP!

I still don't think these shops should be banned - maybe just regulate them, and inform people of the dangers. People will still buy the stuff, but it's better if they know what they're letting themselves in for.
 
Caveat said:
Indeed. Not being smart, but did you not realise the possibility of these affects? BZP hasn't been exactly obscure in terms of adverse publicity & controversy.
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Perhaps I just move in more sedate circles these days compared to my glorious wild youth, but Id never even heard of BZP until I read this thread.

Mind you, Id be far more interested in a high that makes me lazy and mellow than one thats supposed to wake me all the way up anyway so perhaps it just goes below my radar :)
 
Indeed. Not being smart, but did you not realise the possibility of these affects? BZP hasn't been exactly obscure in terms of adverse publicity & controversy.
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It was a good while ago when I took this, and BZP was obscure. It was only really known in New Zealand. It was still legal back then, maybe because no one had heard of it.
I didn't realise that you could legally get such potent drugs. My past experience of legal highs was sawdust type crap with no effect.
As far as I was concerned, they were just like caffeine tablets, maybe with taurine or something in them. I've always done the research on erowid whenever trying something new like poppers or laughing gas.

It was stupid of me to take it without doing full research. I blame no one but me, and wouldn't want them to be made illegal, despite my experience. I still believe people should have the choice whether or not to take them. (Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy though!)
 
It is typical of this country that these shops can trade "legal high" drugs, but, St John's Wort was banned, Aspirin and similar maintenance drugs have to be prescribed and are then sold at exorbitant prices and access to morning after XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is made difficult.

Being cynical, why don't organisations like SPUC and Youth Defence, who, purport to protect the unborn show the same manic meglomaniacal concern for the born youth?
 
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