extopia said:When you talk about houses being "split" do you mean development of the site (e.g. more buildings in the garden) or subdivision of the house itself? There's no doubt about the former, but I see little or no evidence of suburban semi-D's being turned into two family houses, at least not officially. Bedsits, maybe, but "apartments"?
The problem I have with this is that immediately someone tries to prove something by saying "look at TV", they lose a certain amount of credibility with me.Loki said:As for the ability for a dcotor to buy a property straight out of college. Look around the world and be amazed that in other countries this is also the case and they have not collapsed. Look at TV and see how many people rent why is this relevant ? It would be so unrealistic to have them afford a house that even in situation comedies they won't streach that far. Scrubs have them still renting and they are fully qualified.
Loki said:I used georgian houses as an example. Go to London and look at the vitorian estates. Some are close to a complete split in every house. IT just happens to be house stock in the location. This isn't so much a theory as a reality happening now. 7 on my road alone from a house built in the 50s. Are big property build prior to the current was the 70-80s and these houses are being changed . All the corner sites are being used, back gardens are being built on. Georgian houses are hugely different but that isn't the point the point is people didn't think there way of life would change so radically.
People here are focusing on economics and the construction industry (mostly the economics of it) and not property. I think if you are going to talk property prices you need to talk about property stock and who uses it.
You people buying a house will be a sacrifice this society will make. Ireland has the highest home ownsership in the world the next is Italy yet they have a falling population size. I can see this giving before house prices as that is the super annomoly not the price. People here are making the assumption people must buy. The globalisation aspects of our economy seem to be ignored in the property section except for the economic effects.
All the property baddly built now may mean people will dismiss owning property built after 2001. Then supply and demand may change. I beleive it will be congestion that will effect the market. Many areas are so far away that public transport will be unviable kids raised in cars will not be will to commute long distances.
As for the ability for a dcotor to buy a property straight out of college. Look around the world and be amazed that in other countries this is also the case and they have not collapsed. Look at TV and see how many people rent why is this relevant ? It would be so unrealistic to have them afford a house that even in situation comedies they won't streach that far. Scrubs have them still renting and they are fully qualified. As for taking the free education and then leaving, you won't get you much sympathy from me. I can see why you would do it and that stopping you going is in our best interest but I don't use it as a gauge for property prices.
Loki said:There are no official figure for this change so it is being ignored. The reason for no figures is it there is no application needed.
Loki said:As for taking the free education and then leaving, you won't get you much sympathy from me.
newbie said:1. Free 3rd level has been available to all for some years
I used an easy digestable source. You don't like it doesn't make you right. I know doctors in the US and I know where they lived when starting out. How are you going to know or reference that?Calina said:The problem I have with this is that immediately someone tries to prove something by saying "look at TV", they lose a certain amount of credibility with me.
So we are never going to mature? Why assume the price is the only thing that has to give. How do renting rule mature, obviously time and conditions. I think the current situation will mean this will happen to some extent. People are ignoring it, by saying it isn't here doesn't mean it isn't coming.Calina said:If you looked around the world, you would also realise that in most other countries where renting is prevalent, the relationship between tenant and landlord is a lot more mature and regulated. etc...
I don't know Brussels very well but I do know the state it is in from being there. A lot of very run down property in a very large city indicates that there is no shortage of property in the place so that would explain why it cheap. I disagree with you on Paris for prices based on what I looked at buying. Again the city also has no shortage with many run down properties. Try and find a run down property in Dublin city is extremely difficult and the ones you find are normally be sat on by investors. That also doesn't even mention employment rates in these cities. When people are working things cost more. If you live in Paris or Brussels the property is just as unaffordable to you as if you lived here. I don't think people who ignore the high employement here and ignore the low employment in other places as very credibleCalina said:If you looked around the world, you would understand that American television does not reflect the world at large. In fact, I've lived in several other countries, and yes, rent is very common in some of them. But the cost of acquiring an entry level apartment is much, much more reasonable too. Brussels is a case in point. Even Paris is a case in point. An entry level box in Ireland, in the suburbs with little or no public transport costs almost a quarter of a million euro. This is not the case in many other cities in Europe. And where it is, the rental market is not as screwed up as it is here.
Not what I know and see. Lots of 2 bed victorian houses have been converted not just the big ones. Bear in mind the largest percentage of houses in England is Victorian as she was in power a long time. The property doesn't need to be period it is to do with location. Property built between 50s-80s is easily convertable in Dublin. The 70s houses are more likely not to be in fairness due to building materials and construction (like present housing). I have seen 5 old corporation terrace houses converted in Donnycareny to two households. If they can do it to those houses they can do any. No need to knock down houses to do this.Neffa said:Loki - you are right about London - large swathes of the 4-5 bed Victorian houses in London are converted and many houses left unconverted are being extended via loft conversions and the like. However, I don't see how this applies to Dublin - the housing stock is mostly non-period and not particularly suited to conversion to apartments unless you knock-down and re-build. I also don't really see the connection between this and prices in the market.
Not in most areas but importatnly not do Dublin City Council plus 40sqm can be built without planning. That is a lot of space to add and in many cases half the house. By the way these would be flats as they would be entire floors where appartments actually only means a section of a floor or buildingCalina said:Does this require planning permission - turning one house into two apartments?
Calina said:Does this require planning permission - turning one house into two apartments?
extopia said:It most certainly does. Turning a single family dwelling into a two-family dwelling, or into flats or apartments constitutes a change of use of the building. This requires PP, regardless of whether the house is extended or not.
Loki said:Not in most areas but importatnly not do Dublin City Council plus 40sqm can be built without planning. That is a lot of space to add and in many cases half the house. By the way these would be flats as they would be entire floors where appartments actually only means a section of a floor or building
Loki said:.. So we are never going to mature? Why assume the price is the only thing that has to give. How do renting rule mature, obviously time and conditions. I think the current situation will mean this will happen to some extent. People are ignoring it, by saying it isn't here doesn't mean it isn't coming.
No change of use it is still residential property. Change of use is a graden into a car park space or a house into a business. A residential house into a residential property requires no change of use. Unless a city official told you that I'll beleive the people in the planning department who told me. Either way the governement want to increase density and palnning not to be blocked hence the 40sqm planning exemption.extopia said:It most certainly does. Turning a single family dwelling into a two-family dwelling, or into flats or apartments constitutes a change of use of the building. This requires PP, regardless of whether the house is extended or not.
Do you have other super human powers besides the ability to read minds? You don't know this, you think this and no report or expert advise can say this is true. You can't know why people are willing to pay prices. Maybe it is becasue they think it is worth the money and they maybe right or wrong. Why they think it is worth the money is pure speculation as is any reason you believe the house prices are too high. Try to understand what you are saying is your belief and not fact. You may be proved right but what you are saying is wild speculation as you are taking two of your opinions of why things are happening and drawing conclusions from them. Big differnce to using facts and speculating on those effects. I don't no anybody who panic bought as it takes too long to buy. People were told the same 6 years ago and if people listened they would have been bonedwalk2dewater said:But it's mainly the mania of buyers borrowing whatever to accept whatever price is offered, no questions asked.
Loki said:Do you have other super human powers besides the ability to read minds? You don't know this, you think this and no report or expert advise can say this is true. You can't know why people are willing to pay prices. Maybe it is becasue they think it is worth the money and they maybe right or wrong. Why they think it is worth the money is pure speculation as is any reason you believe the house prices are too high. Try to understand what you are saying is your belief and not fact. You may be proved right but what you are saying is wild speculation as you are taking two of your opinions of why things are happening and drawing conclusions from them. Big differnce to using facts and speculating on those effects. I don't no anybody who panic bought as it takes too long to buy. People were told the same 6 years ago and if people listened they would have been boned
You don't have to agree with me. I see what people are saying and I understand it and I would say I understand it better than them in most cases. People assuming to know why things are happening and not looking at the whole picture doesn't lead to a rounded view.Neffa said:I'm coming closer to understanding your argument, but I'm afraid I'm no closer to agreeing with you.
I think you missed the point. People are saying house prices can't keep going up. I say they can because of two reasons.Neffa said:I don't get the connection between splitting houses and prices. Even if you can split houses, I don't see why it drives up prices. It did not have that effect in the UK. It simply produced "new" flats in areas which had mainly houses.
You are still on the assumption that everybody will be buying. Say if prices keep going up and income doesn't why are you assuming people must buy? Why won't the super normal property ownership drop? Maybe the nature of the property will give. Maybe the prices will give. Maybe the prices of certain areas or distances will give only. Maybe a combination will happen is what I say and if you want to buy you can do if you do so correctly.Neffa said:You keep saying "why does price have to give?". Prices cannot keep growing at 8%+ if incomes are growing at 4-5% if interest rates are constant. etc...
Loki said:. THe drop would need to be something like 200%+ to be an issue for somebody 6 years ago in Dublin at least plus the rent paid over that time.
Loki, you accuse a lot of people of making baseless assumptions, and yet, this is full of maybes too. It also is not underpinned by anything other than your anecdotal evidence, something which you are reluctant to accept from those who oppose your view point. Your primary support in favour of your position appears to be that "people have been wrong for six years, therefore they will probably continue to be wrong".Loki said:You are still on the assumption that everybody will be buying. Say if prices keep going up and income doesn't why are you assuming people must buy? Why won't the super normal property ownership drop? Maybe the nature of the property will give. Maybe the prices will give. Maybe the prices of certain areas or distances will give only. Maybe a combination will happen is what I say and if you want to buy you can do if you do so correctly.
Why do peope keep thinking prices will drop and set of a huge price crash? It is such a simple belief for a really complex issue. THe economists have been wrong for 10 years in my eyes but people will except 6 years. The people fighting this arguement won't consider any other additional information that will and does effect the market. I know the arguments and I have heard them better explained than many here. I have not really said they are untrue but I certainly do point out where people are making assumptions. People are making it a belief like religion not a scientific analysis of the facts and possible out comes intead they state it like fact. 6 years of being wrong how can people defend that by saying they will be eventually right. What would you say if in 4 years it doesn't happen? A decade of economists being wrong or a decade of over priced property. THe drop would need to be something like 200%+ to be an issue for somebody 6 years ago in Dublin at least plus the rent paid over that time.
Loki said:You are still on the assumption that everybody will be buying. Say if prices keep going up and income doesn't why are you assuming people must buy? Why won't the super normal property ownership drop?
Loki said:You can't know why people are willing to pay prices. Maybe it is becasue they think it is worth the money and they maybe right or wrong. Why they think it is worth the money is pure speculation as is any reason you believe the house prices are too high.
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