France and Germany rules okay?

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horusd

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As the world holds it breath for the Franco-German solution to the Euro crisis, you'd be forgiven for thinking these countries were the only ones in Euroland. Well,in a sense they are. The only ones that matter that is.

Any sense that this is a democratic club involving all member-states has fallen away, and the true power structures in Euroland are obvious. The fates of all members of the Eurozone lie in these two countries hands. The rest of us haven't even a look-in. Like the rest of the world we have to wait and see what they say. As a one-time committed European, I'm now in the ranks of the Euro-sceptics. I'm not sure I want this kind of club at all. Thoughts anyone?
 
Do you think there is much democracy in Ireland at present? a la fg and labour. And other matters that have arisen today?

NOAH
 
You may well be right horus but with 1 % of the EU's population ( and under half of one percent of all of Europe's population) I'm unsure how big a role Ireland can play either within EU or outside, or ,more important, whether we can get a look-in as you say.
Mind you, along with other small states we can be an irritant and muster suport for certain actions which those smaller states -equally worried about being gobbled up - may support.
 
Well, I get we're a minnow, but Italy and Spain and the small countries combined aren't minnows, yet all key decisions are taken now in Paris or Berlin. The way I see it we either get an EU democratic gov't or we start looking at some other ways we can regain control over our own destinies. And I know that's precious little given the way things are, but ultimately we cannot all be run from Berlin. We didn't kick out one colonial power to be replaced with a different economic one.
 
Welcome to the club horusd.
At the moment the situation is dictated by beggars can't be choosers (or decision makers). The whole idea of a united Europe was never meant to be a political decision making house. The idea was to provide lasting peace by making sure that people, goods and capital can freely flow between members. For this to happen you do not need a parliament or commission or any other massive bureaucratic entity. All you need is agreement between members of a "club" that they will not put barriers in place to stop people, goods or capital from moving in and out.
Hundreds of billions of euros are already wasted on the EU bureaucracy, imagine how much more it would cost to implement a federal system? They can't even get the current system to work, increasing its size and power will only make things worse.
 
Hi Chris, the Treaty of Rome stipulated ever closer union so I suppose that entails greater political union. Personally I don't particularly have a problem with that if there is some Europe-wide gov't and protection from rule by big countries built-in. But what we have now politically is the worst of all options. Franco-German rule, a powerless parliament and Commission and an unaccountable ECB. No coherence, no democracy, what a mess.
 
You will love this then.......... Sorry about the formatting

09:30 18Oct11 RTRS-SOME EURO ZONE COUNTRIES WANT TO GIVE EU OFFICIALS POWER TO OVERSEE GREEK PRIVATISATIONS, GREEK ADMINISTRATION - EU SOURCES 09:30 18Oct11 RTRS-PROPOSAL FACES OPPOSITION FROM GREECE, IRELAND - EU OFFICIAL
09:34 18Oct11 RTRS-Euro zone pushing for tougher policing of Greece - sources
* Countries debate handing privatisation powers to EU task force
* Idea underscores mounting pressure for stricter supervision of Athens
* Surrendering powers to task force may appease Germany, anger Ireland
By John O'Donnell
BRUSSELS, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Some euro zone countries want a European Commission task force to be given extra powers to oversee the sale of Greek state assets and the country's civil service under a far-reaching plan to tighten supervision of Athens, EU sources have told Reuters.
The radical proposal, dismissed by some officials as a form of colonialism and which may be shot down in the face of strong opposition, underscores mounting pressure for stricter policing of Athens, with some ready to see its sovereignty clipped.
Euro zone leaders meet on Sunday to discuss further aid for Greece and tighter controls are high on the agenda. One official said there was wide support for closer supervision of Athens, which has made scant progress on privatisation and other reforms.
"It's that or not getting the money," said one euro zone source, who supports the idea of letting the Commission's Greece task force "take over some of the sovereign fuctions of the state" to "get the machine running".
"It is assistance imposed from outside. It's where outsiders take over some elements of the operation," he said of the proposal, which would involve deploying several hundred technical experts on the ground to administer Greece.
"The idea is living in some capitals. There is no alternative."
The Commission has already dispatched a small number of officials to Greece as part of the EU/IMF 'troika' that is responsible for assessing how well Athens is doing with meeting economic targets. In addition, the Commission's task force helps Athens on tax reform and tapping EU structural funds.
"The scale of the intervention is unparalleled," said the source. "If there was a track record of responsible management, such as in Ireland, things would be different. But that track record is lacking in Greece."
Greece is set to receive another 8 billion euros of EU/IMF aid in November -- the latest payment from a 110 billion euro bailout agreed last year -- and is expected to get another multi-billion-euro package of support soon.
With the economy stagnating, lenders are banking on Athens' selling assets such as ports and power companies to raise funds. It has said it will generate 50 billion euros by 2015, but has so far raised roughly 1.3 billion euros via privatisations.
Other officials, while declining to comment on the specific tighter-oversight proposal, said there was widespread political support to impose stronger policing on Athens.
"Support for stronger supervision is certainly there," said one.
Another source said there was a desire to establish a permanent body to take on some of the work of the troika, which consists of inspectors from the Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
"You need someone who can speak Greek but who is not on the side of the Greeks," said the source. "Their powers would be tied to the conditionality of the loan. It has to be presented carefully - call it technical assistance or something. You can't trample all over them."
Such a blatant move to impinge on sovereignty would put the the European Commission in an uncomfortable position. It wants a bigger role in setting national budgets but draws the line at implementing them.
"The task force is administrative," said a spokesman for the EU's executive arm. "Its role is to support Greece and we don't intend to change this mandate."

AUTHORITY
Under the proposal, which chimes with a Dutch initiative for countries asking for financial aid to be placed under "guardianship", the Commission's Greek task force could be bolstered to hundreds of staff.
The body, run by a German, Horst Reichenbach, would be handed some executive powers, giving it the final say over, for example, privatisations.
It echoes a suggestion made earlier this year by Germany's top official in Brussels, energy Commissioner Guenther Oettinger, that EU officials should take a leading role in Greek tax collection and privatisations.
"It is a matter of authority," said the first source. "There will be a lot of resistance. The formal authority is not in their hands -- Greeks must accept that."
However, one EU official cautioned that the idea would encounter fierce resistance in Athens, Dublin and other capitals, making it all but unworkable as such a programme would require their support.
"Giving the task force executive powers is an idea which has been in the air," he said. "But the Greeks would never accept that and neither should they."
While such a move may reassure lenders such as Germany that further loans to Greece are safe, it would likely antagonise Ireland, which would fear receiving the same treatment, despite having made rapid progress on spending cuts.
(Additional reporting by Ingrid Melander in Athens; Reporting By John O'Donnell; editing by Luke Baker)
((john.odonnell@thomsonreuters.com)(+32 2 287 68 17 or +32 473 92 48 90)(Reuters Messaging: john.odonnell.thomsonreuters.com@reuters.net))
Keywords: EU GREECE/TASKFORCE
 
Sher what is democracy only majority rules? France(66m) + Germany (82m)= 148million. Population of Eurozone = 331million. Add in Holland (6m), Slovakia(5.5m), Austria(8.4) and Finland(5.4m) and you've got a majority there.
I don't think anyone in Germany wants the role they currently have. I am pretty sure they'd be a lot happier looking after themselves. But they don't have that choice anymore, thanks to their politicians.
 
Spot on shnaek. The entire mess was created by politicians trying to fix things, then was made worse by politicians trying to fix things a bit more, and now politicians are trying to tell us that they almost have a plan in place to finally fix things. Will politicians ever learn that they cannot fix things and that by trying they actually make things worse?
 
Reminds me of a Canadian cousin's comment.

"The Golden Rule" means that he who pays the gold makes the rules.
 
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