Fidel - Goodie or Baddie?

[Betsy Og]

Ok, the title is a bit simplistic but thats how George Dubya likes it. Topical as he's temporarily relinquished power while recovering from operation.

I stand to be corrected on what is hereunder - I dont know enough about the place despite having been there once - informed opinion is what I'm after.

In Fidels favour:

1. He overthrew a corrupt military dictatorship.
2. He runs a great health service.
3. Cubans seem to have that "we're in it together" spirit, a la Londoners during the blitz, and seem proud of their country - they dont appear to think Castro is the monster he's painted in the US (afraid to say it maybe?).

Against

1. After overthrowing a military dictatorship re introduced his own one. However maybe he has used his power to better the country?
2. Human rights violations?? Maybe?? Historically but no longer??
3. Communist war monger - the fact that he's a communist is almost a red herring at this stage, its nearly quaint. The worldwide red threat is over. Argument that the US drove him into the arms of the USSR in a bid to survive - after taking power he visited the US and seemed to be open to them, not quite sure why it turned - maybe the US wanted control. It wasnt until much later he declared himself a marxist - marriage of convenience?? Ok the Cuban arms crisis was out of order but I think it was the USSR pulling the strings there.
4. No democracy - another version of 1 above. While democracy is the way to go it may not be the cure all - see Iraq, all these commentators tell you theres no culture of it there and parachuting it in doesnt seem to work. Maybe once he's gone it will be introduced "organically" - i.e. without the US invading and telling the locals that they are now liberated.
5. CUban ex-pats in Florida, can we believe them? Maybe, but are they raving rightwingers?? - it seems they discredited themselves in a big way over the Gonzalez? case (young boy eventually reunited with his dad).

I suppose a lot of my pro Cuba views stem from generally shouting for the underdog, liking the country and the people on a visit there, and disillusionment with US foreign policy e.g. the stupid blockade which is only "collective punishment" for the Cuban people, the existence of Guantanamo base and, worse still, what has gone on in that base over the last few years.

 

[Magoo]

2. Human rights violations?? Maybe?? Historically but no longer??

If only. Dissidents are still imprisoned without trial and freedom of religious espression is restricted. Television and media are strictly controlled.

Sure they have a fine health system but is personal liberty and economic freedom a reasonable price to pay for it?

It's up to everyone to decide for themselves. Personally, I think he's sold his people down the river and is keeping (most of) them quiet by dictating (in every sense) what they think.

 

[Purple]

An balance he's a bad guy. The romantic image of the mouse standing up to America not withstanding

 

[Betsy Og]

As luck would have it there was a discussion on the Last Word re visiting Cuba - the usual tourism slot ,but also on was the doctor from the Dubs teams of late 70's & 80's - the fella who had "end Cuban blockade" on his shirt at a 25th commemoration in Croker (didnt catch his name).

Of course the moral/political issue re whether it was right to visit came up. Now I only got the tail end of it - might get off Today FM site later - but the doc seemed to be very much in support of Cuba and Fidel. I gather he works there a bit, and maybe the great health service papers over all other cracks in his mind, but I would think his was an informed opinion.

Re selling his people down the river?, I dunno, it seemed they were getting a bad deal from Batista & Co but Fidel seemed to work for his people (albeit he never gave them to chance to give him a ringing endorsement ). Doesnt sound like the actions of a money grabber to put so much into health and education.

 

[shnaek]

You have to wonder what would Cuba be like without him. Would it become a US recreation island? Or would it go the way of Venezuala? Would their fine cigar quality suffer?

 

[Betsy Og]

You have to wonder what would Cuba be like without him. Would it become a US recreation island? Or would it go the way of Venezuala? Would their fine cigar quality suffer?

On the Last Word they took the example of Haiti and noted that its in the **** despite all sorts of US intervention.

They also reckoned that even if the country opens up after Castro gone that Cubans will try to hold on to their uniqueness and not become McD's/KFC strewn - maybe Supermacs will be the righteous choice !!! Much to be gained by the masses by US lifting blockade and US investing etc, but wouldnt it be nice if you could get those advantages without wrecking the look of the place.

 

[Sherman]

wouldnt it be nice if you could get those advantages without wrecking the look of the place.

I think the thousands of Cubans who risk their lives, and indeed die, every year trying to flee Cuba by any vessel available, would on balance choose 'wrecking the look of the place' if it meant the right to choose their own government, not having a secret police hovering over them, and actually being able to afford staples such as, oh, food for instance.

 

[Imperator]

In Cuba there is no freedom of association.
There is no freedom to voice dissent.
There is one political party.
There is one trade union.
As has been stated, people are risking their lives in shark infested waters to flee the country. Why would people risk their lives to flee a system with such a wonderful health and education system.
Estimates by Rudolph Rummel, proffessor emeritus of politics in Hawaii suggests that between 30,000 and 70,000 cubans have died needlessly under the Communist Dictator Fidel Castro. (data to year 1987).
Check out Human Rights Watch or Amnesty for their reports on Cuba.

Comparing Cuba and Haiti is not sensible, as Haiti until the late 1980's did not benefit from massive subventions from the other unfree communist dictatorship, the soviet union.

There are no US outlets because Castro is (a) anti business in all senses of the word and (b) a communist dictator who has not afforded his subjects the choice of whether they want a MacDonalds or not.

Regarding the comment that Cubans work together and don't have such a problem with Castro, what would you expect in an unfree society with no free press, radio, alternative political party and an active secret police organisation?

Can we believe Cuban Ex-pats? That's an insult to people who fled or were expelled by a communist dictatorship.

I view Askaboutmoney most days and get a lot from it, but the initial poster is being exceptionally naive, and I wonder if he would make the same remarks about the other worker's paradises: the USSR, North Korea, China etc.

 

[Purple]

I view Askaboutmoney most days and get a lot from it, but the initial poster is being exceptionally naive, and I wonder if he would make the same remarks about the other worker's paradises: the USSR, North Korea, China etc.

See that's where you're wrong. Everyone in North Korea is happy; every time you see those well fed children on grainy footage from the latest parade they are all smiling!

 

[Betsy Og]

I view Askaboutmoney most days and get a lot from it, but the initial poster is being exceptionally naive, and I wonder if he would make the same remarks about the other worker's paradises: the USSR, North Korea, China etc.

Well in fairness I did say I was looking for informed opinion in the matter, not having sufficient info myself. Its not as if theres no contrary view to yours - take for instance the Dub on the Last Word who I mentioned below.

And I did recognise that all was not well. IMHO its one of those cases where it may not be absolutely black or white so further info & opinion is sought. I'm prepared to see your side of it & would also like answered why people risk their lives, is that simply the "proof of the pudding" - if the UK banned us would the odd Paddy drown trying to get there (particularly if, once we touched soil, we were free to stay as was/is? the case with the US)?

Re USSR, China & Nth Korea - I know no more that the man on the street but China seems to have a big human rights issue (not stopping anyone trading though...), North Korea seems a real nuclear threat, so I wont be waving any flags for either of them. USSR - I dunno - havent some of them gone back to the communist party??, again I have no firm view on USSR.

I'm not generally pro-communist or anything so I dont feel any need to stick up for the 3 above. I'm just interested in the Cuban situation ... is that so wrong

 

[Imperator]

I don't know how to include quotes but I will answer on a paragraph by paragraph basis.

I heard the entire last word interview driving home from work. I don't have a transcript of the show so you'll have to take my word that I heard all of it and recollect it well. The radio article was mainly about Cuba as a holiday destination and focused on that in quite glowing terms. Matt Cooper, almost for forms sake, asked about human rights and people being jailed. The 'Dub' blithely said that some of the had received money from the Americans with the purpose of promoting democracy of all things, and he dismissed the journalists as 'bloggers who had posted stuff on an anti-castro website'. As I wrote previously, there is no freedom of association, free press and a strong secret police presence. I would question the opinions of a person who had seen a country in those circumstances.

Regarding the example of the odd paddy trying to get to the UK, it wasn't a case that so many Cubans wanted to reach America per se, they wanted to escape a totalitarian dictatorship. Don't compare emigration for economic reasons with flight for political (and in fairness, economic) reasons.

You know no more than the man on the street? Well you obviously have an internet connection, look up the relevant sites: Amnesty, Human Rights Watch etc. I'd advise you to look up the International Red Cross site, but they're not allowed into Cuban prisons, so not much help there I'm afraid. You have no firm view on the USSR? Well, the people of Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, former East Germany, Ukraine, etc., seem to have a darn firmer view than you don't they?

You stated previously you have a Pro-Cuba stance. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it's not as if Cuba offers some interesting alternative to democracy. It's subjugating people in a system which has failed in every country in which it was applied. Is it a case you're not a fan of the yanks, and will give a happy cheer to someone who opposes them, even if that individual has the blood of up to 70,000 on his hands? (Pinochet was in the minor leagues compared to Castro). You mentioned you had visited there. As far as I'm concerned you supported some pretty nasty characters then.

The irony of course is that if we were in Cuba discussing this, I'd probably end up in a jail cell having electrodes attached to my genitals. But sure Fidel's a gas ol' rogue all the same! 'nuff said.

 

[Betsy Og]

Re the opinion of the Dublin medic - he's obviously well educated and has been there a lot - so if you're right then we have to cast a major doubt over his views. Maybe he's just a crank.

Re the USSR - I was obviously talking about how those former USSR countries are in the present day. As far as I know, apart from Chechyna, they're muddling along. Not that I raised the issue at all, its a separate discussion for those interested, which I'm not particularly.

Re why the Cubans were escaping somewhere, anywhere, I havent heard of them drowning as they made their way to any other Carribean islands, maybe because they got their safely or maybe because they didnt bother. If they got there safely then you'd expect significant Cuban ex-pat populations there, and maybe they are, but I havent heard of them.

Re the Yanks, they have a fine country and as a people are by and large fine, but their foreign policy appears to me to be unduly meddlesome. The train Ho Chi Minh & Sadaam only to have to turn around to fight them, numerous escapades in South America etc., it seemed to be that as long as you were right wing you could be supported, regardless.

Re blood on hands, whats the US headcount?, I forget the stats but they pretty well obliterated Vietnam as one example.

If Castro is that bad then why isnt he painted in the same light as Saddam by the media, e.g. in the recent stories about his surgery and handing power to his brother the stories seem to have a fairly neutral tone, i.e. no mention of despost/monster/murderous tyrant etc. etc. Why are some other South American countries not totally anti-Castro, e.g. Chavez in Venezuela - as part of the health story it said he was back from a visit to Argentina.

Is it collective amnesia by Irish media (to only one I access regularly)?, are all the other South American "supporters" just as bad as him?, is it eejits like me perpetuating a myth?

To reiterate a few points:
-I accept I could be talking through my ****, & I should look up those websites mentioned, but I find it curious that if there is such compelling evidence then why is Castro's image not as black as other similar dictators/despots etc.? Maybe that should have been the title of the thread, "If Castro is so bad why doesnt the media hate him like Saddam?"
- The fact that I challenge what you say does not mean I'm not open to changing my mind, from step 1 I was asking for informed opinion and thank you for same. By responding to you and "debating" it we might learn more. On this basis I wont be getting personal with you and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

 

[Purple]

Re the opinion of the Dublin medic - he's obviously well educated and has been there a lot - so if you're right then we have to cast a major doubt over his views. Maybe he's just a crank.

Anyone who holds up Castro as a hero in the way that that guy did is an idiot and a crank.

Re why the Cubans were escaping somewhere, anywhere, I havent heard of them drowning as they made their way to any other Carribean islands, maybe because they got their safely or maybe because they didnt bother. If they got there safely then you'd expect significant Cuban ex-pat populations there, and maybe they are, but I havent heard of them.

There are loads of things, including major wars, that we never hear about.

Re the Yanks, they have a fine country and as a people are by and large fine, but their foreign policy appears to me to be unduly meddlesome. The train Ho Chi Minh & Sadaam only to have to turn around to fight them, numerous escapades in South America etc., it seemed to be that as long as you were right wing you could be supported, regardless.

I thought Ho Chi Minh was mainly trained by the Soviet Russians in the 1930’s and fought against the Japanese and later the French. AFAIK he was refused help by the Americans (President Wilson if memory serves) as he was a communist. He also helped to found the French communist party before that but I can’t remember when.

Re blood on hands, whats the US headcount?, I forget the stats but they pretty well obliterated Vietnam as one example.

Is there some sort of a relativity scale used in these circumstances that I don’t know about?

If Castro is that bad then why isnt he painted in the same light as Saddam by the media, e.g. in the recent stories about his surgery and handing power to his brother the stories seem to have a fairly neutral tone, i.e. no mention of despost/monster/murderous tyrant etc. etc.

Because he’s yesterdays man, the US media still hate him but there are no new headlines to be got and the European media is so anti American that they still view him as a romantic figure.

Why are some other South American countries not totally anti-Castro, e.g. Chavez in Venezuela - as part of the health story it said he was back from a visit to Argentina.

Because he is not a threat.

Is it collective amnesia by Irish media (to only one I access regularly)?, are all the other South American "supporters" just as bad as him?, is it eejits like me perpetuating a myth?

I’m not sure what you mean here.

To reiterate a few points:
-I accept I could be talking through my ****, & I should look up those websites mentioned, but I find it curious that if there is such compelling evidence then why is Castro's image not as black as other similar dictators/despots etc.? Maybe that should have been the title of the thread, "If Castro is so bad why doesnt the media hate him like Saddam?"

Because he’s not as bad as Saddam, he had no oil, he is not in an unstable geopolitical area and he is old news. We never hear about the Chinese in Tibet anymore or the Russians in Chechnya but that doesn’t mean that bad things are not happening there. We also do not hear much about northern Uganda, southern Somalia, southern Congo, Burma, etc, you get the point?

- The fact that I challenge what you say does not mean I'm not open to changing my mind, from step 1 I was asking for informed opinion and thank you for same. By responding to you and "debating" it we might learn more. On this basis I wont be getting personal with you and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

This is very much to your credit and you are quite right to ask for, and expect, civility.

 

[shnaek]

What is the purpose of the US blockade on Cuba? It appears to be starving the ordinary people there, but doing little else. Perhaps if Cuba had been treated fairly, allowed to trade etc. it could have developed in a different way. I always find that if someone threatens me I get defensive, especially if that person is well built and looks like they'd kick seven shades....out of me. Perhaps a carrot rather than stick approach would have been better all along.
Also, putting guantanamo bay on the island is hardly giving ordinary Cubans a fine view of what democracy and the US is all about. Some will argue that it is. That's a debate for another post.

 

[Imperator]

Here are some useful links which give information on the current situation in Cuba. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty are not absolutely objective, but a lot of information can be obtained from these sites.



[broken link removed]

This article by Wikipedia, while disputed, contains plenty of general information.

I do not understand your point about there being a lack of compelling evidence, there is plenty of evidence (which can be challenged if you want). It is a simple human failing that we find things we expect to find, and don't see what we haven't been asked to look for.

The question "If Castro is so bad why doesn't the media hate him like Saddam" would have been a perfect title for this thread.

It presupposes however that the media did in fact hate Saddam Hussein. I don't know this to be the case. A long discussion could be held here about the influence of the western and irish media in general, but all I will say is that for decades influential figures have spoken approvingly of the Cuban regime. I think they have done so out of a negative attitude towards Western/American/whatever politics and culture.

In addition, as to a dearth of news reports on Cuba, or the fact that Cuban newspapers only contain material which praises the government, I would examine Moynihan's Law, which states that when newspapers are full of good news, jails are full of good people.

I still get the impression, that while you are asking for informed opinion, you think Fidel's a bit of a character, and would hope that you change your mind about him.

 

[Sherman]

Re the USSR - I was obviously talking about how those former USSR countries are in the present day. As far as I know, apart from Chechyna, they're muddling along. Not that I raised the issue at all, its a separate discussion for those interested, which I'm not particularly.

If I were you, I'd go and have a look at some of those websites mentioned above to see just how well many former USSR states are 'muddling along'. Ask for instance the people of Uzbekistan, chafing under a Putin-supported dictatorship, or the people of Georgia, where again, a Putin-supported militia has been waging a terrorist campaign in South Ossetia and Abkhasia, leading to over a quarter of a million refugees. Or ask the Ukrainians, who have endured constant meddling in their political system by, you guessed it, agents of Putin's Russia, and the use of gas as a means to ensure they 'behave' themselves. Or the people of Chechnya, who have the temerity to desire self-determination. Or the people of Kazakhstan, who endured a rigged election and are now under the increasingly despotic control of a, shock horror, Putin-supported quasi-dictatorship.

Hmm, what's the common theme here?

 

[Purple]

If I were you, I'd go and have a look at some of those websites mentioned above to see just how well many former USSR states are 'muddling along'. Ask for instance the people of Uzbekistan, chafing under a Putin-supported dictatorship, or the people of Georgia, where again, a Putin-supported militia has been waging a terrorist campaign in South Ossetia and Abkhasia, leading to over a quarter of a million refugees. Or ask the Ukrainians, who have endured constant meddling in their political system by, you guessed it, agents of Putin's Russia, and the use of gas as a means to ensure they 'behave' themselves. Or the people of Chechnya, who have the temerity to desire self-determination. Or the people of Kazakhstan, who endured a rigged election and are now under the increasingly despotic control of a, shock horror, Putin-supported quasi-dictatorship.

Hmm, what's the common theme here?

Good post.

 

[Betsy Og]

I thought Ho Chi Minh was mainly trained by the Soviet Russians in the 1930’s and fought against the Japanese and later the French. AFAIK he was refused help by the Americans (President Wilson if memory serves) as he was a communist. He also helped to found the French communist party before that but I can’t remember when.

I know that at one stage he was wandering along the China/Vietnam case with his rattan case, apparently close to death as suffering from Malaria, when the CIA came to aid and got him back to health (not certain where their help ended but I understand they were the reason he lived).

Is there some sort of a relativity scale used in these circumstances that I don’t know about?

The point I was making is that no matter what non-neutral country you look at they have an certain amount of innocent blood on their hands. Unfortunately relativity scales are a fact of life. So 20 Palestinians civilans killed in Gaza doesnt seem to raise much outrage but 13 civilans shot in Derry is a huge outrage, put another way "Bloody Sunday" was/is a daily event in the Middle East.

There also seems to be a realtivity in terms of how or by whom civilians are killed. So killings by a government missile launched from a ship/plane that kills 10 civilans dont get treated as bad as 10 killed by a suicide bomber?, no I accept that you can claim a difference in the intent of both parties but theres 10 innocents dead in each case and since "surgical strikes" doesnt seem to be the norm then the guy on the ship or fighter plane, or really his army, is at the least recklessly endangering civilan lives. There's no easy answer to this one because you cant wage even a "just" war without civilians deaths - but I'm not for giving automatic or absolute absolution just because its a government bomb or bullet that kills, as opposed to a "terrorist"/"insurgent"/"freedom fighter".

As a current example Israel seems to have particularly sensitive relativity scale - one of theirs kidnapped means many hundred may have to die.

I’m not sure what you mean here.

Was trying to reason why Fidel Saddam isnt getting the bad rep from journalists who presumably are aware of what the Amnesty sites etc. say. Maybe its the uninformed keeping a myth going.

 

[Betsy Og]

Sherman,

Now I'm not being facetious when I say that all the above is news to me and you'll note that I didnt say I thought the former USSR was a great place, I just didnt know all the above.

So I wont be arguing the above with you, or generally supporting Communism, which was not the intention of this thread. Nor will I be arguing the case for China, Nth Korea or any other dodgy regime be their communist or what not.

My thread was curiosity about the Cuban situation derived, to some extent, by ambiguous media coverage in the face of evidence of evidence of human rights abuse.

 

[Sherman]

As a current example Israel seems to have particularly sensitive relativity scale - one of theirs kidnapped means many hundred may have to die.

Kind of hard for the Israelis to have anything but a particularly sensitive relativity scale, given that their nearest neighbours are all committed, not just to 'wiping Israel off the map', but also to the extermination of the Jewish race.