FF/FG coaltion after the next election?


I share most of your views and would be very close to Labour on social issues. I just can't vote for them for two reasons;

Their economic policies, because they do so much harm to poor and so-called working class.

They are anti-business and are contemptuous of the employers who employ the "working class" people they claim to represent. Their rhetoric about exploitation smacks of an intellectual snobbery that is akin to what came from socially aware English protestants who wanted to help the poor ignorant "blacks" in Africa; a group of people of lower intellect who were therefore ripe for exploitation by the obviously more intelligent white Europeans.
The utterances from the Labour Party, a upper middle class urban party of professionals and the generally well educated who feel a social guilt about their relative wealth, sound very much the same when talking about "the poor".

The fact is that traditionally poor people voted for the larges left of centre part in the state; Fianna Fail. That they were cowboys was a bonus, not an impediment.

That said I take no pleasure at their demise; the vacuum will be filled by Sinn Fein.
 

Labours Way or Frankfurts Way...

Those 5 words sum up the reason Bugler...
FG would have suffered more but I think they got a lot of sympathy votes.
 
Labours Way or Frankfurts Way...

Those 5 words sum up the reason Bugler...
FG would have suffered more but I think they got a lot of sympathy votes.

That doesn't really tell me anything though. That's just a soundbite, like "Labour were decimated - thank god." You could pick any political party and make a similar point. For instance, "A lot done - a lot more to do" doesn't quite sum up FF's performance in Government and what was wrong with it. It was very unwise for any party to make a bald claim that they would row back on the European directives coming Ireland's way. I don't think it was possible.

I have yet to be given an actual reason as to why Labour's demise would be a good thing, seeing as that can only mean one of two things:

1.FF/FG gain at their expense. Let's be honest, that hasn't worked particularly well for the country (particularly the former to be fair)
2. Fringe parties (I include SF in this) gain. I suspect those who wish Labour ill are even less enamoured with the more left leaning parties.

There are an awful lot of things wrong with our political system, but I am not sure any of them are going to be helped by a seriously weakened or obliterated Labour.

Is more FF/FG homogeniety the best answer for Ireland? FF's resurgence, led by a man who was as cosy as any with Ahern and Cowen is particularly damning of the electorate's outlook on what makes for good governance.
 
I have yet to be given an actual reason as to why Labour's demise would be a good thing


Hi bugler,

We are still borrowing 10bn a year to fund public sector wages, pensions and the dole. Many feel that Labour are standing in the way of balancing our budget so we can have a reduced national debt.

Lower national debt = lower interest payments = lower taxes = increased competitiveness = more jobs.

The interest on our national debt is close to what we spending on education already (and that's one of the biggest sectors from an expense perspective). If/when interest rates rise we are down & out unless we can balance our books.

That's why I think (and hope) the game's up for Labour.
 

I haven't heard any of the parties actually arguing for even more public sector pay cuts than those that have been and are to come, as FG are the bigger party surely they should bear some blame for this - to your mind anyway?

For some reason Irish people tend to blame the smaller party for the sins of the larger party which goes well with our general political logic.
 
I have yet to be given an actual reason as to why Labour's demise would be a good thing . .
For me the bulk of the Labour bigwigs are spoofers and windbags . . a litany of broken election promises and u-turns . . clueless when it comes to business/employment . . (of course FG & FF could be accused of same) . . for me, their anti-family, pro-abortion policies differentiate them from the others.
 
Thanks for the reply, Firefly. It may be true that Labour's presence is inhibiting further public sector paycuts, but like derek I am not that certain FG itself would be on for implementing these, even if it makes sense. I think there is an element within FG that would be, but Irish politics is generally about doing no harm at a superficial level and trying not to rock the boat. That is how you get elected and stay elected.

Also, I get the feeling that the The_Banker or others would probably take the opposite view to you on the need for PS paycuts (cuts being more of the Frankfurt Way) and yet you'd agree on the need for Labour to disintegrate. So it seems all sorts of people want Labour to die for many contrasting, and probably conflicting, reasons.
 
For some reason Irish people tend to blame the smaller party for the sins of the larger party which goes well with our general political logic.

That's because of the way smaller parties compromise their policies to get into a coalition more than a big party. Labour ran a campaign entitled 'every little hurts' in the media in relation to FG policies. They have failed to stop must of these cuts. FG aren't losing supporters because they are doing what people voted them into do (probably at a slower pace than ideal for some people). Labour supporters rightly or wrongly feel betrayed by Gilmore.
 
Anyone but SF or Labour

Their unreformed socialist attitudes would destroy the nascent recovery in our economy.

The sooner FG are left unfettered by the bearded brethren, the better.
 
Anyone but SF or Labour

Their unreformed socialist attitudes would destroy the nascent recovery in our economy.

The sooner FG are left unfettered by the bearded brethren, the better.


Labour are a social democratic party with economic policies that are close to sane and rational. SF are still very close to criminality and have economic policies that are isolationist far removed from reality.
I have no problem with Labour in government, as a minor player in a coalition. I have a major problem with SF anywhere near government.
 

SF are implementing cuts in NI without issue.
They would do it here also if they were in government. Despite what they say.
 
SF are implementing cuts in NI without issue.
They would do it here also if they were in government. Despite what they say.

And that's why left wing parties get hammered when in government; their policies are based on dogma, not reality.
 
just like labour so!


What cuts? I thought there was a public sector pay freeze, with no cuts guaranteed.

Howlin searched and searched in the €1bn of allowances, and could only find €30m.

The PS unions must be rubbing their hands with glee everytime they meet thier comrades in such hard nosed negotiations.

We vote for some very feeble politicians in this country. A big part of the issue is multi-seat STR PR. This means that no strong leaders will ever emerge to lead the nation, instead we get the Healy-Raes and unreformed socialists holding the balance of power.
 

Do you even read the papers? What is Croke Park 2 but a pay cut? What about the other cuts that I and many like me have taken since the demise of the "boom"?

Labour - unreformed socialists? Do you even know what a socialist is?
 
The Mighty Quinn threatened the teachers that if they don't accept CPII he will have no choice but to go after the nurses etc. instead. These Labour guys sure know how to negotiate.

The teachers are overwhelmingly against these pay cuts which kick in after 65K. I infer that the overwhelming number of teachers earn a good deal more than 65K.
 

Well.... that depends on whether you include allowances, positions of responsibility, Dip (basic qualification) allowances, etc.
Wait while basic rates are quoted...
 

1 secondary teacher in every 4 earns more than 65k according to a link posted earlier in the Croke Park 2 thread by Firefly .

The TUI are the only teacher's Union to date who have rejected CP 2 , the pay scales can be accessed at www.tui.ie - the basic scale rises to € 59,395 after 25 years - without allowances , the details of such allowances are also on the website.