he invested time, effort and money in to properties which he thought were going to be his pension. Section 23's and section 27's were a government incentive to get people to invest in property for their future needs. As an aside it created employment and taxes for the government, but I gather from what the OP wrote his reason for investing was for his pension - he had no other pension. Banks would not have given all the money needed ( 100% loan ) plus lend the cost of stamp duty plus solicitors fees plus outfitting etc, so I think it probably fair to say the OP did invest something in what he intended to be his "pension."what I said (again) was that he did not invest his money into a pension.
... You invested in the Irish property market, which as you said was logical at the time, and it was even encouraged by the government through section 23 / section 27 tax incentives...
... Section 23 and section 27 pension investments were a government scheme to encourage / incentivise people to invest for their pension, while having the spinoff for the government of increasing the quantity and quality of housing stock in the country ( that was the aim at the time ) and generating employment / taxes for the government.
...he invested time, effort and money in to properties which he thought were going to be his pension. Section 23's and section 27's were a government incentive to get people to invest in property for their future needs. As an aside it created employment and taxes for the government,...
... Go to Newry or Wales or wherever in the UK. Its a better governed country and the madness that went on here did not happen there, at least to the same extent. You can come back in a years time debt free.
...Rather than be in deep debt in 3, 6, 10 or 20 years time, he should go to Newry or Wales/ England and go bankrupt there. He is not doing the best thing for himself or his family if he stays here. I think the OP feels the system is unfair and he is correct, and he should leave.
If he stays here, he says "Once the 6 years is over I will then have the luxury of starting a juicy 35 year mortgage for the house which is now worth €150k with the loan of €289k. That loan over 35 years total a repayment of €600k for a house worth €150k. Great."
If he goes to Newry as Ben Dunne says, he will be debt free in a year.
...I think everyone, esp with the benefit of hindsight, realises it was a bad decision, he should not had done so, but he is where he is, and he can reduce his loses if he goes to Newry for a year. That way he can be debt free in a year, from what I understand. If he does not go, he will owe at least 140,000 net this time next year / next Autumn, from what I understand, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
In Oct 2014, would you prefer to be worth nothing and owe nothing, or to own nothing and owe 140 on a house in negative equity? Ben Dunne was on the radio recently and his advice was for people in this situation to seriously consider going to Newry for the year....he said he would if he was in that situation.
but you said he did not put his own money in to his property pension. I'm just after checking the OP's original post, and in fairness to him he paid off 21,000 of the mortgage on one property alone. (the loan was for 310, he now owes 289 he says ). He probably paid a deposit on the property too, as well as stamp duty, outfitting etc. He will lose all that.
I think the point he was making was that he did put his earned money in to his pension, and yet the public servant now retired with pensions worth the 1.5 million figure he mentioned ( if you were to buy them ) did not contribute anything like that in to those pensions. Commonsense, you have to see both sides of the argument. Lithernau is correct in that his "invested money is gone".
Fair enough, he paid down some of his debt - I don't think a single poster has claimed otherwise, but the over-riding theme to the OPs approach was not to build a pension but to borrow one and hope the markets played into it, thus avoiding the slog of a slow and difficult build up on the basis of earnings over time. The size of his debt far outweighs any payment he has made into it. You say "he had no other pension" - but fundamentally that was a choice, not an imposition.... but I gather from what the OP wrote his reason for investing was for his pension - he had no other pension. Banks would not have given all the money needed ( 100% loan ) plus lend the cost of stamp duty plus solicitors fees plus outfitting etc, so I think it probably fair to say the OP did invest something in what he intended to be his "pension." ...
I nearly think this should be locked...... Broke guy hasn't come back on and I can see why.... It has turned it to a bit of a bashing and don't really think its
Called for.
I do not believe in bashing a fellow when he is down. In fairness to the OP, I gather he said he had a property and his partner had a property ; they met, and for whatever reason bought two more. In fairness to them, they seem to be modest properties, if the combined value of 3 of them is 170k. Would you prefer if he bought one big house in a good area, or a number of smaller properties which he went to the trouble of renting out, dealing with tenants, leases, breakages, repairs etc? He was never going to end up with a pension worth the 1.5 million he mentioned ( someone else who did not invest in property), or anything like that.+1. The OP still doesn't get that buying 4 houses in your twenties on nothing but the hope of capital appreciation is madness.
I do not know about that, I know someone who went to the north for bankruptcy no problem, but he had relations there and may have had some dealings there, I do not know. "Ivan" an idea people can go to Wales either, or to England like your man from westlife and get his debts wiped out.The judge in NI is reluctant to proceed with bankruptcy cases involving people from the republic.
in most other countries like the US and UK people can either hand back the keys or go bankrupt within a year. Where does that leave those countries?So if everyone in the country got the same deal where do you think that would leave us?
...I do not know about that, I know someone who went to the north for bankruptcy no problem, but he had relations there and may have had some dealings there, I do not know. "Ivan" an idea people can go to Wales either, or to England like your man from westlife and get his debts wiped out.
in most other countries like the US and UK people can either hand back the keys or go bankrupt within a year. Where does that leave those countries?
he invested time, effort and money in to properties which he thought were going to be his pension.
but I gather from what the OP wrote his reason for investing was for his pension - he had no other pension.
They are in negative equity to the tune of a six figure sum : they will be better off financially - not difficult as now I understand from what the OP wrote that his liabilities greatly exceed his assets - if they went to Britain ( like so many others ) and got this debt wiped off.He bought property A and lived in it. He paid a deposit to buy the property and he borrowed the mortgage. He repaid his mortgage while he lived there, this is the cost of having a roof over his head - not an investment into a pension.
His partner/wife did the same with property B. They then rented these out and bought property C, they paid a deposit and borrowed the rest for this.
This is their family home, the one where they live with their children, in the city where they work. In 7 years they have repaid 20k off the loan - or 283 Euro per month.
They will not "lose" this as they are living in the home,
you forget he would have paid interest as well as paying off the capital amount. Living in the home - rightly - cost a lot more than 283 a month.most people living in the home of their choice would do very well to have this luxury for 283 euro per month.
of course, did I ever suggest otherwise? And I also think people should pay for their pension. It cannot come too easy and I think the OP may have expected it too easy.You do realise that most people have to pay to have the roof over their heads don't you?
a thin line at times. Investors in banks in cyprus lost money, as well as some investors in Irish banks in the past.You don't seem to understand the difference between investing and gambling.
Investing is when you can afford to lose the money you are using.
Gambling is when you can't.
In fairness to the OP he did not mention he wanted to sell the property "a few years" after buying it. Definition of few: "Amounting to or consisting of a small number: one of my few bad habits.What he did, like so many others, was to borrow the money to buy property and hope that the rent would pay the mortgage, and then sell it for a huge amount of money a few years later.
I do not think "Maintenance, refurbishment etc, all written off by this incentive."...I think the property owner still had to pay this.The Section 23's (that you're so fond of) insured that the cost to the buyer was as little as possible and insured tax free rental income for years. Maintenance, refurbishment etc, all written off by this incentive.
It was a gamble, but unless you have a permanent and pensionable job many people have found their finances have been a gamble. He should have disregard the government property incentive and invested some of his savings for the future outside the country, perhaps through a pension fund ; or else got a job with a defined benefit pension. Not everyone can have a defined benefit pension worth the 1.5 million the OP gripes about, though.He chose to take a gamble and unfortunately it didn't work out for him.
I doubt the costs were "minimal"; they probably spent tens of thousands through deposits , stamp duty, solicitors fees, outfitting, leases, initial mortgage repayments, etc.The costs he incurred was minimal because the first two houses were not bought as BTL's - they were bought as homes.
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I think I have always responded to your actual points. Anyway I have tried to be fair, and to see all points of view. I do not believe in bashing people when they are down, especially if they are decent hard-working people ( and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) who acted in good faith but were possibly unlucky / foolish / misled or whatever. I am not posting on this thread any more and let the OP explain things if he wants.Please Honest try to respond to the actual points I'm making.
I think its unfair for you to say the OP "still doesn't get that buying 4 houses in your twenties on nothing but the hope of capital appreciation is madness". Did he even suggest he anticipated capital appreciation? He is down, in God knows what mental state, and I'm sure he realises his liabilities greatly exceed his assets ; I suggest you do not bash him.
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