Fair Deal/Nursing Homes Fair Deal Financial Assessment complete - next steps and queries re. HSE "top up" (or not).

[podgerodge]

Hi all. I set up this separate thread to a previous one, as it relates specifically to the financial assessment of Fair Deal.

We have had the "financial assessment" completed by the HSE. We have been told that we now have to wait for "funding to be allocated". The letter notes that "should the assessed weekly contribution equal or exceed the agreed cost of care, then no State support will be payable". Makes sense.

My questions for anyone that has experience of this:

1. The HSE website states "The amount your nursing home charges does not matter. Your contribution will stay the same and we'll pay the balance." "As part of the Financial Assessment, the following safeguards are in place: You will not pay more than the actual cost of care." Our HSE calculated weekly contribution EXCEEDS the current cost we are paying to the nursing home. Let's say the HSE Fair Deal contribution amount is €1,700 and we are currently privately paying €1,600. So, this sounds we continue to pay €1,600 in line with the safeguard of not paying more than the cost of care. Indeed, the letter states that if the assessed weekly contribution equals or exceeds the agreed cost of care, then no State support will be payable.

Question: Am I correct in saying that we are covered under Fair Deal, but actually will pay LESS than the Fair Deal contribution - or is the €100 weekly saving somehow owed to the HSE. (One might ask why join the Fair Deal at all, and the answer in our case is that we think this will likely exceed 3 years, so the cost after year 3 when property taken out of equation will make this financially worthwhile.)


2. The HSE letter states "This letter is not an approval for funding under the scheme.....applicant has been placed on the placement list for funding. So the 3 year period has not yet commenced. While this does not affect us financially (as per point 1), it does affect how quickly the 3 years will be up, and hence we will be paying the €1,600 for longer.

Question - why do we need to wait for "State Funding" to be allocated, in a situation where the financial assessment shows that there is no HSE funding required (until after year 3). Surely we should be approved immediately for the scheme.


Thanks.

 

[Des Pondent]

Am I correct in saying that we are covered under Fair Deal, but actually will pay LESS than the Fair Deal contribution ..............

No experience of your circumstances, but that appears to be what they are saying and makes sense in your case, I think you need to ask the HSE to clarify.
If you are now covered under Fair Deal you can continue to pay the full cost and apply for a financial reassessment in the future. Paying €83,000 annually for nursing home fees will put a big dent in savings, you might qualify for state support in the next year or two.

So the 3 year period has not yet commenced. While this does not affect us financially (as per point 1), it does affect how quickly the 3 years will be up, and hence we will be paying the €1,600 for longer.

My understanding is any time spent in a nursing home paying privately or under Fair Deal qualifies towards the 3 year cap on the family home. Again ask the HSE to clarify.

 

[podgerodge]

@Des Pondent what do you mean by we might qualify for State support in next year or 2?

I'm going on basis that, yes, unavoidably, we're paying over €80k a year because of the financial assessment, but after year 3 that will drop to about €35k because the house will no longer be assessed.

 

[POC]

Part of the financial assessment is based on assets other than the home. The assets will be reducing as time goes by. If you are reassessed after a year, the contribution should go down due to decreased assets.

 

[Des Pondent]

@Des Pondent what do you mean by we might qualify for State support in next year or 2?

You might qualify for some state support before the house is disregarded. To be cautious I say might as circumstances can change.

You are being assessed on home, income and other assets which include €200k savings.

Today’s assessed contribution is €1,700 weekly, the nursing cost is only €1,600 weekly, so you do not at this time qualify for state support.

If you spend €80k in the next year on nursing home fees, you should then only be assessed on €120k savings instead of €200k savings. Your new weekly contribution would then be just below the €1,600 currently being paid, so you should start to qualify for some state support.

You can be reassessed every year, but you must apply to be reassessed. As savings go down, you should pay less and state support should go up.

And of course after year 3, when the €700k house is disregarded, there should be a massive drop in your contribution and a massive increase in state support.

I'm going on basis that, yes, unavoidably, we're paying over €80k a year because of the financial assessment, but after year 3 that will drop to about €35k because the house will no longer be assessed.

And If you apply for it, the €200,000 savings will no longer be assessed either because you won’t have it anymore, having spent it on nursing home fees. Would your annual contribution not drop to nearer €20k after 3 years ? or am I missing something ?

 

[podgerodge]

You're not missing anything @Des Pondent all makes sense I was ignoring the reducing savings. It certainly makes sense to do the fair deal if you in any way have reason to believe that there could be a few years of it. Even with significant savings. Even better if you spent all your money and didn't save at all!

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. (And to @POC ).

 

[POC]

I assume the nursing home resident receives a pension which is also being used. So not all of the fees are coming from savings. The savings will reduce over time, but not by the full €80k a year

 

[Des Pondent]

I assume the nursing home resident receives a pension which is also being used. So not all of the fees are coming from savings. The savings will reduce over time, but not by the full €80k a year

That’s true, there will be some money coming in, I was not taking that into account.

Podge will likely spend a lot more than €80k annually though.

At €1.6k a week, the basic nursing home charge works out at €83k annually, then there are extras such as activity charges, I think we were paying €80 weekly, that’s another €4k annually. Parent will still need clothing etc. My parent needed a specialist chair that cost €6k. Physio was another expensive extra. There might still be VHI. It could cost a lot looking after and insuring the family home. Even if not used much, standing charges for gas ad electric are significant. There might still be alarm monitoring.

In reality Podge could easily spend €90k or more every year. Even with a modest pension coming in, it is hard to see any of the €200k being left after 3 years.

 

[podgerodge]

Actually, I presume VHI is a valid deductible from cash assets? And presume we can claim 20% on the 80k?

 

[Ferg2024]

Hi all. I set up this separate thread to a previous one, as it relates specifically to the financial assessment of Fair Deal.

We have had the "financial assessment" completed by the HSE. We have been told that we now have to wait for "funding to be allocated". The letter notes that "should the assessed weekly contribution equal or exceed the agreed cost of care, then no State support will be payable". Makes sense.

My questions for anyone that has experience of this:

1. The HSE website states "The amount your nursing home charges does not matter. Your contribution will stay the same and we'll pay the balance." "As part of the Financial Assessment, the following safeguards are in place: You will not pay more than the actual cost of care." Our HSE calculated weekly contribution EXCEEDS the current cost we are paying to the nursing home. Let's say the HSE Fair Deal contribution amount is €1,700 and we are currently privately paying €1,600. So, this sounds we continue to pay €1,600 in line with the safeguard of not paying more than the cost of care. Indeed, the letter states that if the assessed weekly contribution equals or exceeds the agreed cost of care, then no State support will be payable.

Question: Am I correct in saying that we are covered under Fair Deal, but actually will pay LESS than the Fair Deal contribution - or is the €100 weekly saving somehow owed to the HSE. (One might ask why join the Fair Deal at all, and the answer in our case is that we think this will likely exceed 3 years, so the cost after year 3 when property taken out of equation will make this financially worthwhile.)


2. The HSE letter states "This letter is not an approval for funding under the scheme.....applicant has been placed on the placement list for funding. So the 3 year period has not yet commenced. While this does not affect us financially (as per point 1), it does affect how quickly the 3 years will be up, and hence we will be paying the €1,600 for longer.

Question - why do we need to wait for "State Funding" to be allocated, in a situation where the financial assessment shows that there is no HSE funding required (until after year 3). Surely we should be approved immediately for the scheme.


Thanks.

What they are saying is you can afford to pay €1700 per week. If the NTPF rate is above €1700 the Fair Deal covers the difference.
The nursing home charge you are currently paying is under a private contract and the fee can be reviewed as per contract (usually annually). Even if the nursing home was charging a private fee in excess of €1700 you would still not be covered under the fair deal. All Nursing Home fair deal rates are published on the HSE website.