Face coverings to be mandatory in shops

Is it mandatory to wear masks in supermarkets?
I think the advice is to wear them but the regulation hasn't been drafted yet. You'd be forgiven for asking why such regulation wasn't drafted weeks ago in anticipation of this eventuality by the brilliant people we are so lucky to have employed as public servants in the various departments.
 
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Mr Price Rathdowney Co Laois yesterday, shop was quiet enough, all the staff wearing masks, hand-cleanser available inside the main entrance, shopping baskets cleaned behind the check-out area before being stacked and returned for customer use. The check-out area is well shielded with clear plastic "walls" and the floors have clear safety markings. A well run retail outlet, apart from three female customers, wandering the aisles randomly, three-abreast, none of them wearing masks, none of them carrying shopping baskets.

When I encountered them for the third time approaching me head-on, I asked the oldest member of the group if she had a mask she could wear. She immediately launched into a loud tirade about my abusing her. Three staff members were on the spot immediately when she repeated the accusation of abuse. I pointed out to her that all I'd done was ask her if she had a mask she could wear, in line with health guidelines for retail outlets. She agreed I'd asked her about the mask, adding now that as she had breathing difficulties she was exempt from wearing one. I asked if her companions also suffered breathing difficulties and were also exempt and pointed out that the sensible thing to do, as a member of a vulnerable community, was to stay home.

The woman who seemed to be the senior staff-member thanked me for my contribution and said she'd handle the matter from there. I thanked her and moved on, reversing my route out of the aisle now blocked by six people.

For years I understood that the right to service in a shop was reserved to the proprietor/staff, in other words they decide what customers to serve. In the absence from any legislation from government, isn't it a simple matter for retail outlets to ask shoppers not wearing masks to leave until suitable attired? Conversely, can shoppers complain about the shop's failure to protect them adequately?

I was in a supermarket a couple of weeks ago, big place, well known name. I was walking by the hot deli counter and one of the staff was taking trays of hot chips, chicken etc. from a trolley and placing them in the hot trays.

While he was doing this, an acquaintance (non staff) was chatting to him while helping himself to handfuls of chips, shoving them into his mouth and going back for more with the same hand. The staff member didn’t give a toss. Other staff members could also see them, none of them did anything.

If I had met a manager in the aisle whilst doing my shop, I might have mentioned it. I didn’t even dream of confronting the double dipper because nothing would have come from it other than my making two new “friends” in my village.

Regardless of our own outrage, there is very little to be gained by making ourselves police, judge and jury to strangers in supermarkets. Framing the event as a crime against ourselves only serves to deepen our own sense of frustration while achieving nothing other than possibly putting our own safety in danger (people have been killed for less).

On top of this and probably most important of all, we don’t have the right to harass other other people whose behaviour annoys us if that behaviour is legal and not harming anyone at the time. We can choose to take our business elsewhere.

You'll end up giving yourself a heart attack over this stuff.

Finally in my case, none of the parties involved were wearing masks that day and so going by the levels of hysteria abundant on social media, I can only assume that they're all dead now.
 
You observed possible acts theft and breaches of food handling regulations and basic hygiene in the shop and did nothing? I'm not sure I'd want to keep quiet so I could remain on good terms with the perpetrators. I'm rather more choosy about people I'd want as acquaintances.

I don't abide by the old Irish principle of ignoring selfish, uncaring behaviour or wrongdoing ("ah shure, there's people doing worse") especially where health and lives may be at risk.
 
I was in a supermarket a couple of weeks ago, big place, well known name. I was walking by the hot deli counter and one of the staff was taking trays of hot chips, chicken etc. from a trolley and placing them in the hot trays.
While he was doing this, an acquaintance (non staff) was chatting to him while helping himself to handfuls of chips, shoving them into his mouth and going back for more with the same hand. The staff member didn’t give a toss. Other staff members could also see them, none of them did anything.
If I had met a manager in the aisle whilst doing my shop, I might have mentioned it. I didn’t even dream of confronting the double dipper because nothing would have come from it other than my making two new “friends” in my village.
Regardless of our own outrage, there is very little to be gained by making ourselves police, judge and jury to strangers in supermarkets. Framing the event as a crime against ourselves only serves to deepen our own sense of frustration while achieving nothing other than possibly putting our own safety in danger (people have been killed for less).
On top of this and probably most important of all, we don’t have the right to harass other other people whose behaviour annoys us if that behaviour is legal and not harming anyone at the time. We can choose to take our business elsewhere.
You'll end up giving yourself a heart attack over this stuff.
Finally in my case, none of the parties involved were wearing masks that day and so going by the levels of hysteria abundant on social media, I can only assume that they're all dead now.

Their behaviour there wasn't legal regardless of covid-19 and should be reporting to the Food Safety Authority of Ireland.
Calling out egregious breaches of safety legislation isn't harassment and there are numerous ways in which their behaviour could harm others.
If I were you at the very least I would never purchase hot food from said establishment and tell your anecdote to everyone in your vicinity so they can take similar precautions.

Social media hysteria? People dropping dead? Seems like a case of pot - kettle- black.
 
Their behaviour there wasn't legal regardless of covid-19 and should be reporting to the Food Safety Authority of Ireland.

I'm not an expert on food safety legislation and so was not able to make a citizens arrest on the spot. If I was wrong about my legal opinion, I'm harassing the person, who by the way, is eating with the consent of a staff member and in front of other staff members. And other customers.
Even if I'm right about my legal opinion, the correct course of action is to alert the manager. On the day, I didn't care to do this as it would have descended into "I said/ they said".

Calling out egregious breaches of safety legislation isn't harassment and there are numerous ways in which their behaviour could harm others.
If I were you at the very least I would never purchase hot food from said establishment and tell your anecdote to everyone in your vicinity so they can take similar precautions.
Please don't act like this doesn't happen all the time, everywhere. I'd lick door handles before I'd eat hot deli food. FWIW I've told plenty of people.
Social media hysteria? People dropping dead? Seems like a case of pot - kettle- black.
That was a half joke, based on the current levels of catastrophisation on Twitter regarding masks. Thanks for the feedback, I'll drop it from my open mic routine.
 
You observed possible acts theft and breaches of food handling regulations and basic hygiene in the shop and did nothing? I'm not sure I'd want to keep quiet so I could remain on good terms with the perpetrators. I'm rather more choosy about people I'd want as acquaintances.

I don't abide by the old Irish principle of ignoring selfish, uncaring behaviour or wrongdoing ("ah shure, there's people doing worse") especially where health and lives may be at risk.

One of the points I was trying to make was that for all your heroic interventions, you're having no effect. Those people didn't care what you thought. It's unlikely the management cared either. Nobody was breaking the law and nobody was answerable to you in that moment.

I offered my story to show that its not just masks, there is loads of outrageous behavior right in front of our noses every day. It seems that now masks will be the flashpoint for this needless, judgy, totally ineffective behavior going forward. Good luck with that if that's the kind of thing that makes you feel happy.
 
I'm not an expert on food safety legislation and so was not able to make a citizens arrest on the spot. If I was wrong about my legal opinion, I'm harassing the person, who by the way, is eating with the consent of a staff member and in front of other staff members. And other customers.
Even if I'm right about my legal opinion, the correct course of action is to alert the manager. On the day, I didn't care to do this as it would have descended into "I said/ they said".
Please don't act like this doesn't happen all the time, everywhere. I'd lick door handles before I'd eat hot deli food. FWIW I've told plenty of people.
That was a half joke, based on the current levels of catastrophisation on Twitter regarding masks. Thanks for the feedback, I'll drop it from my open mic routine.

You're not an expert on food safety legislation? Citizens arrest? Who said anything of the sort?
You don't have to be an expert or conduct a house arrest - just to report obvious breaches of hygiene in establishments that prepare food to the FSA.

Catastrophisation? 1300+ people have died. That was a catastrophe.
Masks are a low impact (in terms of costs) piece of a set of measures to help reduce the R factor for this virus so we can reduce the future cases count and future death count. I don't want to see the country stepping back in phases and back to lockdowns. If we don't get serious about them and the other measures we'll only have ourselves to blame for such an eventuality. Whataboutery about kitchen deli counters is neither here not there.
 
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Catastrophisation? 1300+ people have died. That was a catastrophe.
Masks are a low impact (in terms of costs) piece of a set of measures to help reduce the R factor for this virus so we can reduce the future cases count and future death count. I don't want to see the country stepping back in phases and back to lockdowns. If we don't get serious about them and the other measures we'll only have ourselves to blame for such an eventuality. Whataboutery about kitchen deli counters is neither here not there.

I think the number is 1700+. If you're saying all of those people died because other people didn't wear masks, then that's catastrophisation and that's the narrative being generated on social media now. Another narrative, along the same vein, is that COVID = 100% chance of death. Also catastrophisation.

As I said before, I wear a mask and I hope others do too. Put your mask on, where required, then mind your own business.
 
I think the number is 1700+. If you're saying all of those people died because other people didn't wear masks, then that's catastrophisation and that's the narrative being generated on social media now. Another narrative, along the same vein, is that COVID = 100% chance of death. Also catastrophisation.
As I said before, I wear a mask and I hope others do too. Put your mask on, where required, then mind your own business.

Please point out where exactly I said that all those people died because other people didn't wear masks?

I'm implying masks can play a part in averting a second catastrophe- both in terms of fatalities and economic impact.
I think the emerging evidence on masks does suggest we could have averted many deaths, especially in health and care settings, but also in the community, if we had had mandatory masks from March.

Good that you are on board re: the wearing of masks.
But I disagree with the "minding your own business" - what droplets other people produce is everybody's business in the context of covid-19 or for that matter, what people drink re: drink driving or smoking in public spaces. Social disapproval has a part to play in establishing norms of behaviour as much as laws do.
 
what droplets other people produce is everybody's business in the context of covid-19

I would love to see that assertion being tested in a court against Article 40.4, not to mention your fundamental right to privacy under the constitution. Utter nonsense.

Social disapproval has a part to play in establishing norms of behaviour as much as laws do.
Catholic Ireland used just that tactic to enable, hide and defend a litany of human rights abuses. This is not a virtue anyone should be encouraging.
 
I would love to see that assertion being tested in a court against Article 40.4, not to mention your fundamental right to privacy under the constitution. Utter nonsense.
Catholic Ireland used just that tactic to enable, hide and defend a litany of human rights abuses. This is not a virtue anyone should be encouraging.

The right to privacy has nothing to do with drink driving, smoking in public places, wearing masks in public places. They are everybodys business which is why there is government legislation concerning them.
When it comes to public health campaigns what another person drinks smokes or sneezes is everyones business as it can impact them as innocents.

Nor has the constitution anything to do with social disapproval of same or the establishment of societal norms.

I have no idea what you are on about re Catholic Church. Sounds like by your own logic you are breaching their right to privacy.
 
You said that the droplets other people produce was everyone's business. That's what I was replying to you're well aware of that. The other stuff you mention is irrelevant.

If you're unaware of the history of the Catholic Church in Ireland I can only suggest that you read up on it. Social disapproval is a standard tool deployed by any establishment seeking control of otherwise unwilling citizens in situations where the said authority lacks the legal clout or justification to implement legislation. It's generally premised on some "moral social responsibility " and engages the blind loyalty of "useful idiots" to propagate the message. Non conformists or people who ask too many questions are socially ostracised.

Most (bad) historic events were achieved in this way.
 
You said that the droplets other people produce was everyone's business. That's what I was replying to you're well aware of that. The other stuff you mention is irrelevant.
If you're unaware of the history of the Catholic Church in Ireland I can only suggest that you read up on it. Social disapproval is a standard tool deployed by any establishment seeking control of otherwise unwilling citizens in situations where the said authority lacks the legal clout or justification to implement legislation. It's generally premised on some "moral social responsibility " and engages the blind loyalty of "useful idiots" to propagate the message. Non conformists or people who ask too many questions are socially ostracised.
Most (bad) historic events were achieved in this way.

The push towards social disapproval of such actions as - spitting in public, drink driving, smoking in public places had nothing to do with the process you have described though. Laws alone would not be enough without them also being denormalised socially.
And the 'tool' as you have described has I think no relevance to the issue of the mandatory wearing of masks and face coverings in public places during a public health emergency. Mask wearing to me fits with those previous changes in societal norms which had a public health aspect rather than anything from the bad old days of the Catholic Church as a state within a state.

It is everybody's business in the same sense as concern re: drink driving or smoking is - which is why the government is legislating for it and why it is the subject of a public health campaign. In this case we also need to socially normalise the wearing of masks and stigmatise those who take a cavalier attitude to them.
 
Where we need to get to is less of:
Tom what are you wearing a mask for... you look like a clown.

And more of:
Tom, if you are going to wear a mask at least wear it properly not like a pirate. Even Trump can wear one properly.
 
If you're unaware of the history of the Catholic Church in Ireland I can only suggest that you read up on it. Social disapproval is a standard tool deployed by any establishment seeking control of otherwise unwilling citizens in situations where the said authority lacks the legal clout or justification to implement legislation. It's generally premised on some "moral social responsibility " and engages the blind loyalty of "useful idiots" to propagate the message. Non conformists or people who ask too many questions are socially ostracised.

Just to get some perspective on this …

I’m cocooning since day one because I am 68 and have one underlying condition.

This condition doesn’t bother me at all in normal circumstances, but I have been advised that contracting SARS-CoV-2 would in all likelihood make me very sick at least or end my life at most.

Because it is exceptionally contagious, I can’t go to any indoor spaces – supermarkets, stores, restaurants, hotels, sports venues, etc., because of the chance of non-compliance with health advice on the part of the business or its customers.

I can patronize businesses only through their online services, if they have one, or by relying on others to buy something for me.

But, of course, this is not possible in every situation as specific businesses require physical presence of customers. Also I am disinclined to rely on others in case I endanger them.

Therefore, my support of Irish businesses has become confined and restricted.

Multiply my situation by thousands of others - people of my age and older, some younger and some much younger with considerably more serious underlying conditions than mine.

This has a direct effect on the economy.

People who, formerly, could work and/or like myself, make a greater contribution to the economy, are effectively deactivated by concerns of defiance of health advice.
 
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Q: What’s the point of wearing a cloth face covering if it doesn’t filter out everything?
A: Cloth face masks still provide a major protective benefit: They filter out a majority of viral particles. Breathing in a small amount of virus may lead to no disease or a more mild infection. But inhaling a huge volume of virus particles can result in serious disease or death.
 
And there it is. Any reasonable, sensible measure that helps protect me and others, whether legislation or recommendation, needs to be embraced to try to avoid the dreaded secondary pandemic wave being seen in other countries. I fail to see the problem with doing the simple things.

The shopping in herds thing is becoming common-place again. How many young wans does it take to shop for a multi-pack of Taytos, sans masks, ignoring handwashing on leaving the shop and social distancing? The minimum seems to be four.
 
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