Good question.As part of the budget last Oct it was announced that the free GP card scheme would be extended to cover from April 1, 2023, those with a net median household income of €46,000 or less.
What does net median household income of 46k or less mean ?
What is the process to apply for the free GP card or is it open yet?
Thanks
GPs are paid an annual capitation fee per medical/GP cardpatient regardless of the frequency of consultations. Overall those with cards consult more often so unless we can magically appear more GPs from somewhere, it seems inevitable that practices will struggle to see everyone. Most GPs don't want more patients at any price - just ask them.Then there's the fact that GP's get paid more per consultation for public patients than they get for private patients. They state is paying them a premium for operating in the protected sector.
Yes, and when total payments are divided by total consultations they make more money from a public consultation than a private one.GPs are paid an annual capitation fee per medical/GP cardpatient regardless of the frequency of consultations. Overall those with cards consult more often so unless we can magically appear more GPs from somewhere,
Why are we so more inclined to trust everything that's said by organisations and groups we perceive as not having a profit motive and than what is said by organisations we perceive to have a profit motive.it seems inevitable that practices will struggle to see everyone. Most GPs don't want more patients at any price - just ask them.
Doctors critical of extension of free GP care announced in budget
Budget 2023: IMO says free GP care for 400,000 patients will create hospital-like waiting lists at practiceswww.irishtimes.com
If the public system is so lucrative it seems strange that GPs have been so reluctant about any extension of the public scheme (past and present). Anyway, the capitation amount does not appear exorbitant. I assume the higher amount is for the elderly, who use the GP practice a lot (and not just to see the GP):when total payments are divided by total consultations they make more money from a public consultation than a private one.
The Capitation payment for over 70's GP cards is €403.31. If the patient has a chronic illness there's an extra €300. If they are in a nursing home the basic payment is €644.63.If the public system is so lucrative it seems strange that GPs have been so reluctant about any extension of the public scheme (past and present). Anyway, the capitation amount does not appear exorbitant. I assume the higher amount is for the elderly, who use the GP practice a lot (and not just to see the GP):
"Ireland uses the capitation system by paying GPs sums varying from €52 to €326 depending on the age of the patient."
I think that any system that is totally free will be undervalued and overused - and paralysed by waiting times. I would welcome a public scheme to cover everyone but with some type of payment included. Not necessarily the same as any of these but using the same principle:
"France, where a typical fee is €7.50 and a yearly cap of €50 applies. In Norway, the co-payment is €16-34, with a yearly cap of €233."
(Paul Cullen , IT, https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2...ll-well-and-good-if-there-are-enough-doctors/)
You seem to be conflating several different issues.We also need to remember that we have a lucrative industry training doctors from other countries who are often obliged to go home after their training. The medical sector constantly misrepresent this (lies about it) as graduates emigrating after graduation because of the pay and/or conditions in Ireland.
The medical sector constantly misrepresent this (lies about it) as graduates emigrating after graduation because of the pay and/or conditions in Ireland.
We train more doctors per capita than any other OECD country (not "in the world"). And we have one of the lowest per capita number of doctors. Even then most doctors do not wish to train as GPs. One factor identified in a recent study is that medical students often have relatively little exposure to general practice during their course. And then of those who do complete their 4 year post-grad GP work-training many soon leave the country. So lack of numbers would in fact seem to be a significant contributor to the problem.We train more doctors per capita than any other country in the world. The problem isn't a lack of numbers, it's a lack of GP's who want to work fulltime.
No, I'm not.You seem to be conflating several different issues.
I want the ICGP to acknowledge it and stop misrepresenting the data to suggest that every graduate doctor that leaves is doing so because of the shortcomings of the system.Medical schools in Ireland rely excessively on extracting funds from non-Irish/EU medical students. (Similar to the the UK reliance in foreign student fees). I seem to recall from the 20-odd year old Indecon report that the cost of educating Irish students in our medical schools is substantially subsidised by the fees from overseas students. In so far as this has changed in the interim I guess it is only to increase the level of cross-subsidisation. If we want to change this there would seem to be a funding issue to be addressed.
Exactly. But that's not how the medical sector present it.Yes, many of these overseas students will leave Ireland after graduation by choice. Until recently, at least, many also left because of the difficulty they had in accessing postgraduate medical training programmes as non-irish nationals. Something which doctors organisations had made representations about for years.
Separately from this many Irish graduates are emigrating after initial internship and many cite pay and conditions.
What would you call it?Your claim that the medical sector is "lying" about this seems well over the top (whichever "motives" you are attributing to them).
Of course we do. More specifically we need more of the GP's we have working in General Practice and working full time. I think that lower marginal tax rates and lower childcare costs would be a big help, as they would be for most female dominated sectors as women still shoulder the greater proportion of the work involved in rearing children.Do you think we need more GPs working in Ireland or not?
Then we have been hearing different reports. Or selectively listening.Exactly. But that's not how the medical sector present it.
I would say it is a lie to claim this. Or maybe that is a gross exaggeration?What would you call it?
Do we need to improve the training of doctors so that they have more exposure to General Practice?We train more doctors per capita than any other OECD country (not "in the world"). And we have one of the lowest per capita number of doctors. Even then most doctors do not wish to train as GPs. One factor identified in a recent study is that medical students often have relatively little exposure to general practice during their course. And then of those who do complete their 4 year post-grad GP work-training many soon leave the country. So lack of numbers would in fact seem to be a significant contributor to the problem.
Income is part of the equation in any work-life balance.As to the "lack of GPs who want to work full-time" many of these are opting for less money in exchange for a better work-life balance. I see that as a positive thing, and hardly the act of someone largely "motivated by profit and income".
Making it more attractive does make it more lucrative or are you suggesting that Doctors are somehow not subject to the same human weaknesses as the rest of us?We train plenty of doctors but we need to make GP a more attractive (not more lucrative) profession than it currently is or the drain will continue.
I agree 100%.Overloading GPs with more patients and more consultations before sorting out the groundwork is not the way to go.
I've never heard a GP representative highlight the number of overseas doctors we train and how that impacts on the number of graduates who leave.Then we have been hearing different reports. Or selectively listening.
Okay, so you would say that it's a lie. Maybe misrepresenting the truth for their own gain would be a better way of putting it.I would say it is a lie to claim this. Or maybe that is a gross exaggeration?
Yes.Do we need to improve the training of doctors so that they have more exposure to General Practice?
Are you talking about undergraduate training? If so, if we want more Irish undergradutes then we have to address the funding. We are already relying on foreign student fees to subsidise medical college costs. We do not have to double the number or foreign high fee-paying students to do this.As things currently stand only 50% of any extra training places we create will result in a extra doctor in Ireland since 50% of our trainees are not from here and won't be staying here.
No, I am suggesting this was a lie (or maybe just a misrepresentation of the truth would be a better way of putting it?):Okay, so you would say that it's a lie. Maybe misrepresenting the truth for their own gain would be a better way of putting it.
The medical sector constantly misrepresent this (lies about it)
I think you may be mixing up the foreign (non EU) doctors who graduate then leave the country, with those who apply, are accepted for, and complete the ICGP 4 year GP scheme. The latter are almost without exception undertaking this with the intention of eventually going into practice in this country. One reason they might have left after completing it would be if they were unable to secure a practice to work in. It's their Irish colleagues who head off to Australia and Canada where jobs and the whole work-life balance are more attractive. You can't blame them either.Do we need to improve the training of doctors so that they have more exposure to General Practice?
What proportion of the doctors who complete their 4 year post-grad GP work-training are foreign students/graduates who were never going to stay here in the first place?
Yes.Are you talking about undergraduate training?
I agree. I'm in favour of higher college and university fees. The old system where those who could afford to pay did so and those who couldn't afford to pay didn't was much more equitable. I'm not in favour of the taxes paid by poor people being spent educating rich people.If so, if we want more Irish undergradutes then we have to address the funding. We are already relying on foreign student fees to subsidise medical college costs. We do not have to double the number or foreign high fee-paying students to do this.
Oh, okay. I asked you what you would call the misrepresentation of the facts by the doctors unions and you seem to have done what they do and answered a different question.No, I am suggesting this was a lie (or maybe just a misrepresentation of the truth would be a better way of putting it?):
I wasn't but I certainly could have been cleared.I think you may be mixing up the foreign (non EU) doctors who graduate then leave the country, with those who apply, are accepted for, and complete the ICGP 4 year GP scheme.
Is there data to back that up? I'm not saying you're wrong but the whole discussion around our health service is lacking data on the "why" while we are great at counting the "What"; trolleys, waiting lists etc (though I don't believe the numbers for waiting lists are anywhere close to accurate as one on every 7 people in the country isn't waiting for an appointment).The latter are almost without exception undertaking this with the intention of eventually going into practice in this country.
So there's a massive shortage of GP's but the newly qualified ones can't get a job? That sounds hard to believe.One reason they might have left after completing it would be if they were unable to secure a practice to work in.
Yea, where taxes are lower and house are cheaper. They are left with more income after expenses. It comes down to money in the end and no, I certainly don't blame them... though when the people of Ireland just spent hundreds of thousands educating you some would say you should have to pay back the cost of your training before you bugger off.It's their Irish colleagues who head off to Australia and Canada where jobs and the whole work-life balance are more attractive. You can't blame them either.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?