Enduring power of attorney novice

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raglan

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Hi, this is a learning curve to me and my family. Our Mum has recently entered a nursing home after a year of delirium episodes which she recovered from briefly but the last stay in hospital amounted to not a formal diagnosis of dementia but she has low to moderate impairment which probably would get worse and she would need long term care.

We are waiting on fair deal scheme to be finalised,it was a process we started as a family in case we needed it and both us and nurses in hospital talked to Mum about her care and she signed the form too.

I am asking question about her bank accounts. Mum and me had an arrangement over the years that for example if I got her groceries/oil etc as I had access to her online bank details I simply repay myself from that. Also I would be the child with most knowledge of her accounts etc. Going forward to pay her contribution to nursing home I could continue to pay bill direct from her account. Or should I see about enduring power of attorney?

In hospital sometimes , I was told she has no capacity as at times she was very deeply confused, then at other times and in nursing home I was told she has definitely some capacity. The doctor I would be seeing about it has seen her in nursing home so I was going to ring for advise. I understand solicitor has to explain form to her, do solicitors visit people in nursing homes to do this as it would be a bit of an ordeal to bring her to office as she pretty frail. I feel I could have looked about this a few weeks ago but her mental state hasn’t changed since then and this law stuff is all new to me and was busy getting fair deal scheme sorted. Also I don’t want to stress Mum out with this stuff.
 
raglan said:
I am asking question about her bank accounts. Mum and me had an arrangement over the years that for example if I got her groceries/oil etc as I had access to her online bank details I simply repay myself from that. Also I would be the child with most knowledge of her accounts etc. Going forward to pay her contribution to nursing home I could continue to pay bill direct from her account. Or should I see about enduring power of attorney?
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We managed this the first way rather than looking at power of attorney (because it was probably already to late due to diagnoses etc.) and it worked fine. But a key thing is that my four siblings were happy to trust me to manage my mother's finances this way from her entering the nursing home to her death there. Obviously if that's not the case in a particular family then doing it more "officially" would probably be better.
 
IANAL

If your parent no longer has capacity for decision making, they cannot create an Enduring Power of Attorney (EPA).

You can only do that when you have full capacity, prior to becoming ill.

Would be very surprised if your solicitor agreed to do this.

I think your best bet would be to look at ward of court; agreements between siblings are all fine and well until someone no longer agrees.
 
Hi,

This is a tough time for you, and can be quite stressful, so make sure to look after yourself, as well as your mother. Don't try to do everything yourself.

Like Clubman we did not bother with the Power of Attorney and I looked after all the finance stuff myself. The one thing that I found reassuring was to keep careful accounts, possibly handwritten even, just so you can show to anyone querying bills, or where all the money is going.
 
Thank you for the replies. Yes my siblings too would be happy for this way too but I was thinking enduring power of attorney gave more right for unexpected stuff. Do the banks have a form that my Mum could sign showing that I make payments from her account. The only issue I can see not having power is that the funds may run out after a year in the account that I have access too by paying the fees then the other option is a joint credit union account with Mum that I was asked to sign up to years ago. How would I access this if needed as a joint holder? Would anything else turn up in the future where it would be good to have the enduring power of attorney in place? No property sale will be an issue as nothing will be done with that.
 
In our case I was noted as a nominated contact on the relevant (small number of) utility bills so that they'd talk to me if necessary and I had access to my mother's online banking and that was sufficient for everything that needed to be done. She had other accounts (CU, PO etc. but they never needed to be touched. Ultimately, we didn't think that the complexity and cost of EPOA (and it was probably too late for that in our case too) or ward of court was justified so took a more casual approach. Again, I reiterate that this was predicated on the trust of all siblings and it worked for us but might not be appropriate in other circumstances.
 
Yes all of utility bills for house come out DD from account. Yes think might be best for us, will keep record of all transactions for clarity. Thanks for your replies.
 
Just to add we had what sounds like an identical situation as described by ClubMan above. We dealt with it that way and I was the ‘bookkeeper’. It worked perfectly for us but understand why others might not want/be able to do it that way.

g
 
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Meant to say that I also kept notes on payments that were made. But none of the siblings were bothered to double check anything. But it's still obviously a good idea to keep track of things even if there was an EPOA/ward of court arrangement.
 
raglan said:
Do the banks have a form that my Mum could sign showing that I make payments from her account.
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In our case I had to take my mother to her local AIB branch and we signed the necessary forms so that it was in effect a joint account. It may be too late for you to do this in light of your mother's failing health.

raglan said:
The only issue I can see not having power is that the funds may run out after a year in the account that I have access too by paying the fees then the other option is a joint credit union account with Mum that I was asked to sign up to years ago. How would I access this if needed as a joint holder?
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You may well be able to manage with the present account until the funds run out, and if the credit union account is a joint one, then there should not be a problem. Best to double check if it is still current, and has not become dormant, which usually happens after 3 years. You could sign up to an on-line version, if possible, and then do the transactions that way.
 
If there is enough capacity its worth doing power of attorney. I believe every one should make a living will/power of attorney. We were managing finances with joint name and online banking for a number of years due to advancing dementia. A serious issue arose for us when a private nursing home where our mother went for respite after a fall raised "concerns" about her going home. They wanted to keep her in and had the GP/public health nurse in some agreement (my mother was increasingly needing local services which were under pressure) Without power of attorney we very nearly couldn't get her out of there. Big meeting 5 of them (officials) and 5 of us family across a table. Fortunately we made a strong enough case and we managed to get her home where she lived happily for another couple of years. It was life or death for her as any time she went into any kind of respite she stopped eating and if we had not succeeded that day she would not have survived more than several weeks. We have all since gone to a solicitor and created a power of attorney. I get great peace of mind knowing my family will act in my best interests and according to my wishes if that day ever comes.

Particularly important if one has children as assets can be frozen by the state.
 
Note: power of attorney and Enduring Power of Attorney are two completely different things.
 
So firstly, will the Solicitor visit the hospital/nursing home?. Yes, most will (subject to visiting rights due to Covid etc).

In the case of my own mother, my self and my sister were given the Power under the EPA, the solicitor came to the house and had a discussion there with Mam so he was happy that she was in a competent enough mental state to understand what she was signing. It may be worth considering adding one of your siblings to the Power from both a transperency perspective and to reduce any issues around undue influence. It will also give the solicitor more assurance that nothing untoward is going on. He also wrote to my wife and my sisters husband and asked them to sign a form and confirm back that they were aware of the Power, again around transperency and undue influence.

Once Fair Deal is sorted, you'll need to nominate a bank account for any residual difference to be paid to the Nursing Home and that is usually via DD. You'll also have to visit the bank and probably complete a "vulnerable adult" form once the Power is signed and if the pension is not being paid electronically into her bank account, you'll have to contact the Pension team in Social Welfare as well to sort that out.

We got all of this sorted prior to dementia really kicking in and Mam was relieved that it was sorted. Peace of mind all around as a previous poster has said
 
ClubMan said:
We managed this the first way rather than looking at power of attorney (because it was probably already to late due to diagnoses etc.) and it worked fine. But a key thing is that my four siblings were happy to trust me to manage my mother's finances this way from her entering the nursing home to her death there. Obviously if that's not the case in a particular family then doing it more "officially" would probably be better.
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Was there any complications when executing stuff after your Mum died with the solicitor going this route without enduring power of attorney? Did solicitor have any issue that bills were paid from parents account with no attorney in place is what I want to know really.
 
EPA ends as soon as the donor passes.

Estate is dealt with be executor if there is one or under intestacy rules if no will.
 
Hi Raglan. I was in a similar situation to you albeit with my bachelor uncle. We weren't close but we discovered he had ended up in hospital as he wasn't taking medication for Parkinson's. It transpired he had symptoms of dementia also that the hospital were trying to get under control. We went down the route of getting a General Power of Attorney to get access to his bank account, as his house needed work before the hospital would release him. His solicitor visited him in hospital and at the first visit he was too confused to sign the form. He did not know this solicitor as he had taken over from someone else in the practice so this probably didn't help. The solicitor visited again a second time (both private visits) and he signed the general power of attorney. This was a simpler process than the EPA - which 8 months later my uncle did not have the capacity to sign off on (and is a much more detailed process).
You could try going for the General POA in the first instance with the solicitor visiting your Mum. My uncle's solicitor is an advocate for the older person and he was amazing with my uncle, and we know he had his best interests at heart.
So I got access to my uncle's bank account. When he eventually went into a nursing home I was able to set up the direct debit to pay the Nursing home fees for him from his account. I kept records of everything, and kept extended family members in the loop (his older brother etc).
My uncle passed away last year and we are sorting out the estate. They are not interested in specifics relating to his account, other than if there are any amounts owed that type of thing.
Hope that helps.
 
This may not seem like a big deal to mention and you may have already taken care it. My late mother had a EPA set up and when she was in the nursing home and her dementia was worsening, for whatever reason it took her solicitor almost a year to have the EPA put in effect.

Look at your mother's landline, mobile, insurance and utility bills to see how much she was being charged. My mother's landline was about €80 a month, her mobile phone [with just calls and texts] was €60, once a year AAA car breakdown of €195 was being charged once a year, despite her not owning a car for years. These monthly costs when added up comes to a lot of money.

None of the one's my brother tried to cancel or get changed could not be done because 'they needed to speak to the person who set up the account' and my mother refused to believe they were charging her since she no longer lived in her home and wouldn't talk to them. Also, the Fairdeal scheme you might have put in place years ago the financial part needs to be looked at again to ensure cash assets haven't decreased but your mum still paying the higher rate. Make sure all of the deductions allowed were taken off the assets, including the first €36,000 not counted as means. Only going on experience here on what happened in my mother's case and only found out while in executor role of her Will.
 
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