Election Results

Purple said:

I agree.
The barriers are job insecurity, no free time, little privacy, very long hours and low pay relative to the hours worked. Then there's the abuse from the public, the assumption that you'll be at every funeral and GAA match and an electorate who want their politician to operate at the national level except when it comes to the local issues which that individual voter cares about.
You'd have to be out of your mind to want to be a TD unless you were a cap wearing type TD who was a gombeen parish pump politician working every angle for personal gain or a tax cheating fraudster who is a socialist when it suits him.

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you forgot to also mention those making spurious personal injury claims...

cremeegg said:

This is as much your reaction as the set up of the infrastructure.

Being a new Dad at the school gate gets you included as a novelty in a way that wouldn't happen if you were just another new mother.

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Really? Where are the father and baby and father and toddler groups? A man entering an environment dominated my women can be difficult if he isn't a confident and extroverted person.

Anyway, it's just an analogy. If you don't get the point I was making then I can't help you.
Men can face that at the school gate. Women have faced it in the workplace for decades. In many cases they had to be "one of the lads" to be taken seriously.

Purple said:

Really? Where are the father and baby and father and toddler groups? A man entering an environment dominated my women can be difficult if he isn't a confident and extroverted person.

Anyway, it's just an analogy. If you don't get the point I was making then I can't help you.
Men can face that at the school gate. Women have faced it in the workplace for decades. In many cases they had to be "one of the lads" to be taken seriously.

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Of course I get the point you are making.

Entering any new environment can be difficult unless you are a confident and extroverted person.

As for being "one of the lads" as a man who has never had any interest in sport, or thrash talking women I learned many years ago that people will accept you for who you are if you are simply true to your self.

Sure you may on occasion have to face down some twit who will try to undermine you for not knowing the difference between Arsenal and Chelsea, but every one else in the group probably has them down for a twit already.

As for father and toddler groups, I doubt there is a mother and toddler group anywhere who would not welcome a father.

Now are you going to moan about feeling excelled by the matriarchal nomenclature or are you going to join in. Don't forget to bring some buscits.

cremeegg said:

Of course I get the point you are making.

Entering any new environment can be difficult unless you are a confident and extroverted person.

As for being "one of the lads" as a man who has never had any interest in sport, or thrash talking women I learned many years ago that people will accept you for who you are if you are simply true to your self.

Sure you may on occasion have to face down some twit who will try to undermine you for not knowing the difference between Arsenal and Chelsea, but every one else in the group probably has them down for a twit already.

As for father and toddler groups, I doubt there is a mother and toddler group anywhere who would not welcome a father.

Now are you going to moan about feeling excelled by the matriarchal nomenclature or are you going to join in. Don't forget to bring some buscits.

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It seems that you don't get the point I was making. It is harder for a man to fit in and feel comfortable in social infrastructure set up by women for women. With a few exceptions the whole working world was set up by men and structured for men. Therefore, all else being equal, it was harder for women to fit into such environments than it was for men.
That's all I'm saying. It's not a comment about men being hard done by or how awful feminism is or anything like that.

Think of older sectors like finance where people commonly played golf as part of the process of doing business or developing their careers. How do women fit into that scenario?
I have minimal interest in football, don't trash talk women, don't engage in bigoted jokes and don't play golf. I'd more likely be found baking with my daughter than playing football with my son so I certainly don't fit into the traditional "alpha male" stereotype.

Purple said:

It seems that you don't get the point I was making. With a few exceptions the whole working world was set up by men and structured for men. Therefore, all else being equal, it was harder for women to fit into such environments than it was for men.

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I get that point, I doubt there are many people who do not.

Purple said:

That's all I'm saying. It's not a comment about men being hard done by or how awful feminism is or anything like that.

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I understand that.

The important question is how to respond. You can bemoan your fate or you can address the situation as it is.

Purple said:

Think of older sectors like finance where people commonly played golf as part of the process of doing business or developing their careers. How do women fit into that scenario?

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Golf, I'm glad you mentioned golf.

I loathe golf, at least the football bores only want to talk to you about football, golf bores may actually expect you to play golf.

I well remember the company golf day. I decided that I would get the trousers get the shoes and give it a go. For the first 3 holes I did great, I lined up my feet, I kept my arms straight, and I even kept my eye on the ball. But when you have done that a few times you begin to loose the will to live. I tried a bit of self deprecating humour. Oh no. It seems thats unacceptable, you do not laugh on a company golf day.

For months after I camped out on the moral high ground. I gave it a go, I made the effort but next year we really should try something water based, its more inclusive you know, and while you may get wet you won't have to pretend you are enjoying yourself.

And my point is that lots of traditional structures tend to exclude certain groups, but so how should you react to that. If as a father you want to join the mother and toddler group, go along, I suspect they would be welcoming.

But draw the line at golf.

I tried playing golf once. I was rubbish as it but I'm rubbish at most sports (mostly the ones I've tried) but I quite enjoyed it. It did help that I was with a friend and we laughed our was around the course. I haven't played since; I don't have time and if I did I can think of better things to do.

I agree that it is important how we react to situations but it is also important to acknowledge that many environments have been constructed by men and while they don't consciously exclude women they do make it more difficult for women to operate within them. Then when women point out that such structures exist simply by acknowledging it you lessen their impact.