kirvos said:For those of us who work in the precarious private sector, with no hand-outs, employment or salary guarantees, this kind of nonsense just sends us into apoplexy.
MB05 said:.. We got shares in exchange for drastic changes in work practices like reductions in travel & expenses, 50/50 time in lieu instead of overtime and we had to give up our annual bonuses and pay our own pension (eircom paid for it previously) etc. and we borrowed money to buy some of the shares etc. ESOP owes millions in loans.
many of the union leaders involved with the eircom deal made millions in shares etc. it was taxpayers assets/money that the cwu workers received their money/shares from. even worse things happen in the likes of esb where the AVERAGE wage is 80k and workers have received gret deals on pensions and potential privatisation etc.once again public sector screwing the private PAYE worker.TarfHead said:Thanks for the informed reply.
While the changes involved my have been drastic to many eircom employees, they would seem to be the status quo to many private sector employees.
The potential €12700 dividend is a significant perk and that is something not available to many in the private sector.
For the first time in many years, I have to admire the work of a trade union.
As it was then, is now and ever shall be... and no government will ever change it so just accept that the world is not a fair place and get on with it.bearishbull said:again public sector screwing the private PAYE worker.
MB05 said:We got shares in exchange for drastic changes in work practices like reductions in travel & expenses, 50/50 time in lieu instead of overtime and we had to give up our annual bonuses and pay our own pension (eircom paid for it previously) etc.
kirvos said:BTW, it's the rest of us who are stumping up this largesse for you privilaged lot.
For those of us who work in the precarious private sector, with no hand-outs, employment or salary guarantees, this kind of nonsense just sends us into apoplexy.
cerberos said:"The union conspired with venture capitalists to asset strip something the Irish taxpayer invested in over many years"
At least the venture capitalists don't not pretend to have anybody's elses interest in mind (poor, weak, social justice, etc). It show the Unions as a bunch of begrudgers who will hop into bed with anyone to hijact a state asset)
It was a disgrace, the money belonged to the country and I consider it stolen from the people. (else sell it and build shelters, schools,etc) and tpo cap it off the Revenue did a deal to give them 12700 tax free per annum. (Whats that Gross??)
Who else can get that deal from Revenue?
Why do you say that? Is it because they agreed not to hold the country to Ransom for a few years as long as they called the shots?Meccano said:The unions were part of that success.
That is a nonsensical proposition. It's so sweeping as to be meaningless. Africa is not a country and to suggest that it can be treated as a single entity for any comparison is ludicrous.Meccano said:Looking at the Big Picture - those countries with strong unions are often the most successful (Ireland, US, UK etc), while those without unions are often economic basket cases riven by poverty (S.America, India, Africa etc)
India is a liberal democracy and has vast inequality, China is a police state and has far less absolute poverty.Meccano said:Unions are usually present in LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES, where there is fairness and equal opportunity in society. People have the incentive to work.
Like China and Singapore?Meccano said:Without fairness in society there is none of the stability that business needs to flourish. The result is all-round impoverishment and social strife.)
What did they do?Meccano said:We had it in Ireland and the unions played a lead role in the social change that had to happen to create todays Celtic Tiger.
That's why they have race riots and one of the worst records in supporting states that abuse human rights?Meccano said:I know France very well, and while an out and out Capitalist might despise their unions and laid back life-style, that is a choice the French have made for themselves. The French are fully conscious of this choice.
France may not be YOUR idea of a capitalist nirvana, but they have a far higher standard of living than many parts of europe (including Ireland) and they don't want to be on the kind of treadmill that the American model brings.
Thats their choice, and I say - good for them.
What has that got to do with anything? People go for the climate and the historical heritage they accumulated when they were an aggressive imperialist power.Meccano said:Meanwhile the Irish fall over themselves to sample the French Joie De Vivre. Its the Number 1 tourist destination in the world.
Like France?Meccano said:You believe the unions have wrecked this country? I forecast that if the unions were gone this country could slide down the drain into social unrest.
Why is that the solution? Will the company suddenly have a future as a small state owned airline on the periphery of Europe or will it continue to be run by trade unions and former school teachers?Meccano said:The solution to the Aer Lingus crisis is simple - call off the sale, then no union members get anything. That'll learn 'em.
According to a very debatable publication from a vested interest.Meccano said:Thats utter tosh shnaek. We're the second richest country in the world according to the latest statistics! The unions were part of that success. .
The US has strong unions? That is news to me. I was under the impression that since Reagan the power of the unions in the US is considerably less than it is here and in Europe. The US values flexibility of labour.Meccano said:Looking at the Big Picture - those countries with strong unions are often the most succesful (Ireland, US, UK etc), while those without unions are often economic basket cases riven by poverty (S.America, India, Africa etc).
Meccano said:We had it in Ireland and the unions played a lead role in the social change that had to happen to create todays Celtic Tiger.
No body could argue against a laid back life style - unless you are out of work. What incentives do employers have to employ people in a country where the cost of labour is so high?Meccano said:I know France very well, and while an out and out Capitalist might despise their unions and laid back life-style, that is a choice the French have made for themselves. The French are fully conscious of this choice.
I'll thank you to keep your personal comments to yourself. Just because I express an opinion on something doesn't mean you've got me all sussed out. Stick to the points and keep things objective.Meccano said:France may not be YOUR idea of a capitalist nirvana, but they have a far higher standard of living than many parts of europe (including Ireland) and they don't want to be on the kind of treadmill that the American model brings.
Thats their choice, and I say - good for them. .
Nothing to do with unions. More to do with food, wine, coastline, scenery, weather, Paris, skiing.....Meccano said:Meanwhile the Irish fall over themselves to sample the French Joie De Vivre. Its the Number 1 tourist destination in the world.
What are the unions doing about that? Ensuring their own members can afford them no doubt. I haven't heard any unions call for stricter regulations on lending for example.Meccano said:The seeds are already there with the impossible cost of housing for young people.
Calina said:...not withstanding the massive fall in their share price from day one
Which publication are you referring to? The UN HDR? "The 2005 Human Development Report, published by the UN Development Programme yesterday, found Irish people to be the second wealthiest in the world, with a GDP per head of $37,738 (€30,384)."According to a very debatable publication from a vested interest.
Perjorative language Purple. Tsk Tsk. Its called The Partnership Approach.Why do you say that [The unions were part of that success].
? Is it because they agreed not to hold the country to Ransom for a few years as long as they called the shots?
I was referring to the origins of the union movement in this country, to which the very independence of this State is inextricably linked.The unions played a role, but not a lead role. They collaborated with goverment and other social partners, and fair play to them.
This is way to complex to deal with in a few lines.The US has strong unions? That is news to me. I was under the impression that since Reagan the power of the unions in the US is considerably less than it is here and in Europe.
Errr...people in Unions ARE the 'ordinary working folk'! I don't know many corporate accountants, multi-national CEO's or millionaire property developers in the unions. They don't need 'em, do they!But here in Ireland, and to a greater extent in Europe, unions are only looking after their own self interest and the self interest of the public sector. They don't give a damn about the ordinary working folk.
Sigh...I was just trying to be brief.Africa is not a country and to suggest that it can be treated as a single entity for any comparison is ludicrous.
Thats more nonsense. For a start, India may be a DEMOCRACY, but it is not LIBERAL. In fact India has been more like a Marxist state until very recently. Unions were not permitted, and I'm not sure they are yet. As to China - what is 'less poverty'? Less than who? India? Wow...thats really saying something then, eh? According to the UNHDR - 16.6% of the Chinese population live on less than $1 a day, and at $2 the figure jumps to over 46%. See here: [broken link removed]India is a liberal democracy and has vast inequality, China is a police state and has far less absolute poverty.
cerberos said:........and tpo cap it off the Revenue did a deal to give them 12700 tax free per annum. (Whats that Gross??)
Who else can get that deal from Revenue?
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