Economic value of job creation?

At the moment I am working in a near city centre location. In a 500 metre stretch of road there are four pubs two are closed fulltime, one opens for five nights only the other is open fulltime. There is one small shop open and several others closed forever. What was once a bustling area with people leaving and waiting for buses has become a near wasteland. Many of the flats/houses in the stretch are empty, two have water leaking 24/7 onto the public footpath; many are not looked after and are eyesores. Even the small Post Office there has a sign "Use Us or Lose Us" displayed. Further up the road is a row of houses with windows and doors boarded up (probably a legitimate ploy not to pay water taxes, property taxes etc). Most of the non Irish residents have emigrated to other countries (many of them hospital workers). Most of the Irish renters have skidaddled also. Landlords scratch their combined heads trying unsuccessfully to attracting people into the area.

Even the popular school that never needed to advertise for students now has signs displayed publicly advising of open-nights. The creches have signs displaying vacancies (unheard of in better times).

But, all is not lost, it is thought that Tesco is taking over one of the other closed businesses on the stretch and will open a drive-in supermarket with off licence with a security man overseeing customers use the automatic self-check-out machines.

This situation is not unique. Exactly the same is being mirrored in most towns/cities/villages throughout Ireland. The bad news is that this situation is with us forever. The traditional job outlets are gone. The civil service, Post Office, Banks, hospitals gave guaranteed employment which no longer exists.

Combined, they were probably Ireland's greatest earners with knock-on spending and probably was the life-blood of our community.

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Sunny said:

Not exactly true Chris. The government has access to foreign Countries that companies don't. An Irish farmer is not going to get his beef into China unless the Chineese Government allow it. Do you expect the farmer to lobby the Chineese Government? Do you expect a few Irish farmers to head off to Asia to explain and market why Irish beef is better than British or Brazillian without any support?

Ask people in agriculture if the State bodies don't play an extremely important role in increasing exports. As for paying for these bodies, it is not tax that has to pay for it. If these agencies generate enough sales for Irish farmers and companies that they couldn't generate themselves, then they pay for themselves.

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But you are basing your argument on the premise that the government is the only or best capable institution to promote Irish agriculture. Of course an individual farmer will not see many doors opened in China, but an organisation like the IFA run by those in the business can achieve this.

Maybe the return on taxes paid for promotional services is higher than the taxes, but that still doesn't tell you if the return is actually maximised and wouldn't be higher if a voluntary members organisation were to take care of this.

There are countless examples where charities make far more efficient use of resources than their government counterparts; why would it be any different with other services?

I know many farmers and have asked them all whether they would prefer lower taxes/red tape and less subsidies and less promotion to what they have to del with now. And they all said that they are perfectly capable of running their businesses without the "help" of government.

Chris said:

I know many farmers and have asked them all whether they would prefer lower taxes/red tape and less subsidies and less promotion to what they have to del with now. And they all said that they are perfectly capable of running their businesses without the "help" of government.

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I've heard it mentioned that there is one Dept of Agriculture employee for every three full-time farmers in Ireland.

Chris said:

But you are basing your argument on the premise that the government is the only or best capable institution to promote Irish agriculture. Of course an individual farmer will not see many doors opened in China, but an organisation like the IFA run by those in the business can achieve this.

Maybe the return on taxes paid for promotional services is higher than the taxes, but that still doesn't tell you if the return is actually maximised and wouldn't be higher if a voluntary members organisation were to take care of this.

There are countless examples where charities make far more efficient use of resources than their government counterparts; why would it be any different with other services?

I know many farmers and have asked them all whether they would prefer lower taxes/red tape and less subsidies and less promotion to what they have to del with now. And they all said that they are perfectly capable of running their businesses without the "help" of government.

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I am not basing my premise on anything. I am basing it on how the system works. Do you want an organisation like the IFA trying to get into export markets when they are competing with other Countries Governmental export agencies? Do you really think you would see the next Chineese Premier coming to Ireland to see our Agriculture industry if he was invited by Mr. Joe Bloggs of the IFA instead of by the leader of the Country while on a trade misson?

International trade isn't done that way. You may want it done that way where everyone can sell anything everywhere they want but that's not the way it works.


And you met a farmer that wants LESS subsidies? So the Irish farmers won't mind the moves to reform CAP.

T McGibney said:

I've heard it mentioned that there is one Dept of Agriculture employee for every three full-time farmers in Ireland.

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There are about 3,500 staff members in the department of agriculture, food and marine. They do more than deal with farmers.

Sunny said:

I am not basing my premise on anything. I am basing it on how the system works. Do you want an organisation like the IFA trying to get into export markets when they are competing with other Countries Governmental export agencies? Do you really think you would see the next Chineese Premier coming to Ireland to see our Agriculture industry if he was invited by Mr. Joe Bloggs of the IFA instead of by the leader of the Country while on a trade misson?

International trade isn't done that way. You may want it done that way where everyone can sell anything everywhere they want but that's not the way it works.

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Yes, officials from China would deal with the IFA, as was demonstrated earlier this year when the Chinese Vice President met with the president of the IFA. The IFA and its officials knows more about agriculture and running a business and making trade deals than all politicians put together. Why on earth would China not want to talk and deal with them?
You are still assuming that a government agency is better able and more competent at making trade deals than an association of interested parties who actually know the business and products.
The only role for government should be to put out a public statement saying that they would not stand in the way of any trade between businesses here and in China. As I said before, governments don't make trade happen, it happens automatically when two parties come to a mutually acceptable deal.

Sunny said:

And you met a farmer that wants LESS subsidies? So the Irish farmers won't mind the moves to reform CAP.

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My wife grew up I rural Ireland on a farm, and all her family and friends are from farming backgrounds. So I have talked to more than just one farmer. And when I put the question to them, that if they could choose between the current system and one where there would be less taxes and red tape in return for no subsidies all go for the latter.
A lot of them have spent time in New Zealand where agricultural subsidies were abolished many years ago and it has one of the most vibrant agri sector economies in the world.