East German property outside Berlin

  • Thread starter Enda Storey
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Enda Storey

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Any opinions on other cities of the former East e.g Leipzig, Dresden etc. They should follow suit in the event of an upswing over there but allow a lower entry cost than B.
 
Doe you have a foreign accent? Be carefull, Irish people came back from eastern Germany on stretchers and wheelchairs. There is a reason why everything is cheaper in the east-even life.
 
heinbloed said:
Doe you have a foreign accent? Be carefull, Irish people came back from eastern Germany on stretchers and wheelchairs. There is a reason why everything is cheaper in the east-even life.
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Are you referring to "anti-foreigner" predjudice ? I agree with you this may exist, however I don't think it is specific to E. Germany. Its alive and well also here in Ireland.
 
look i live in germany hamburg to be precise and i really think ur way off the mark to be honest talking drivel irish people coming back in stretchers etc. Germany has very diverse and different property markets, berlin is different to hamburg hamburg is different to frankfurt were not talking about one mono property market here there are many socio economic issues which have to be considered. I do see good potential in germany as a whole but lets remember the buy to let/ property ladder idea does not exist in germany full stop so you simple do not have the level of market liquidity buying and selling that you have in uk /IRL hence if you wanna buy in leipzig dresden or anywhere in the east for that matter in the hope of turning a quick buck a la dublin style you are in the wrong market especially when you consider entry costs of 10-12%. Germany is long term steady and slow like the economy its not a turn and flip market something a lot of hyped up blinker wearing irish investors need to understand.
As far as the anti foreigner thing i think your slightly off there my friend.
 
I agree with you entirely. Prejudice is everywhere. As a matter of fact German society is probably more open than Irish as a whole.

Re: property ventures: Yes, there is a big discrepancy between West and East but my impression is that West Germans won't touch east Germany now as they have had their fingers burnt over the last 15 years. 20% unemployment and high vacency rates don't help.

I'm making some initial enquiries around Dresden\Magdeburg etc. will see how it goes. Ready for a 10-15 year investment...I think over that timeframe the european economy should be much more balanced regarding property.
 
it the major eastern cities property may be cheaper than in west Germany but the highest level of unemployment is there too. There may be no chance of making a quick profit like here but the rental market is stronger with something like 80% of germans renting. Hence things like tenants rights are different and probably better there and something to be aware of. Also estate agents take about 10% when selling property.
 
Eastern Germany has the lowest proportion of foreigners living in Germany, in some places 0 %. Leipzig about 5%. Dresden a similar number. Frankfurt (Main) 40% , Berlin about 30%. There is a reason for these differences. Asylum seekers are distributed all over Germany by the central gouvernment, that is the reason why there are 4-5% of foreigners living in the larger eastern German citys, not that they want to. Several eastern German citys don't get any asylum seekers anymore, the local police can't guarantee for their lives.... many had been killed, even in police custody! As someone who is living in Hamburg cyp12 should be better informed about the situation.
Read the papers , or google. I recommend the taz, or the Hamburger Abendblatt or the Sueddeutsche Zeitung. But the European human rights comission has reports about the situation as well.
But you can contact the Irish labourer organisations as well, they handle the wheel chair and stretcher cases of Irish emigrant workers who worked in the "wrong" part.
Or just try it out, but visit an Irish pub in any part of Germany at Friday night and talk to the workers before.
 
Still think you're wide of the mark buddy. And by the way there are no "Irish emigrant labourers" working in Germany....think you're stuck in the wrong decade or century even !
 
I have heard Jena is one city that has performed well in the former East. It may be worth a look. It was the site of the Carl-Zeiss factory and has a highly skilled workforce and new industries.
 
Just heard on the wires that the city of Dresden has today sold its entire housing stock (over 45,000 apartments) to a single investor (don't know who, likely a property fund ?) in order to clear its debts.....I think this is a very significant development in the east German property and other cities may follow suit.

I have spoken to some representatives of these city housing agencies and lets say they are a bit backward in coming forward, I expect a a private developer to shift the stock a lot more efficiently and quickly.
 
Maybe someone is stucked behind pink glasses and wants to sell us the good view.In Berlin there are more than 1.000 registered Irish nationals living on the dole.....
Here are the official numbers of the German Bundestag concerning attacks on foreigners. I cite the first six month of 2005:
jan: 21 attacks, 10 injuries, 4 arrests, 0 prison sentences
feb: 17 attacks, 14 injuries, 1 death, 13 arrests, 0 prison sentences
march: 15 attacks, 9 injuries, 24 arrests, 0 prison sentences
april: 8 attacks, 4 injuries, 0 arrests, 0 prison sentences
may: 20 attacks, 15 injuries, 18 arrests, 0 prison sentences
june: 21 attacks, 21 injuries, 20 arrests, 0 prison sentences
and so on and so on......
"Attack" = physical violence
"injurie" = physical demage in need of professional medical care
"arrest" = the police found the culprit(s)
These stats are for the entire of Germany. About 80.000.000 people total. About two thirds happened in "the East" where around 17.000.000 people live. So less then a quarter of the population creates more then two thirds of hate attacks against foreigners. I should mention that these are the official stats of the German Dep. for Inner Affairs, discussed in the German Bundestag where they can be seen by everyone.
Someone claiming to live in Germany and not beeing aware what's going on in his own "foreigner" cumunity should not be trusted , neither in financial/investing matters nor personaly. I have seen Irish rouges "working" in Germany stripping their bretheren of the last penny.....
So be carefull with your money and who you trust.
 
jan: 21 attacks, 10 injuries, 4 arrests, 0 prison sentences
feb: 17 attacks, 14 injuries, 1 death, 13 arrests, 0 prison sentences
march: 15 attacks, 9 injuries, 24 arrests, 0 prison sentences
april: 8 attacks, 4 injuries, 0 arrests, 0 prison sentences
may: 20 attacks, 15 injuries, 18 arrests, 0 prison sentences
june: 21 attacks, 21 injuries, 20 arrests, 0 prison sentences
and so on and so on......

1 death in 6 months from a population of 80,000,000 does not in my book constitute a "rivers of blood" scenario that you are trying to paint. I don't have the statistics for Ireland but I think it would be a surprise if there were only 11 racially motivated "attacks" in 1 year which would be the equivalent figure based on population of Germany.

Your comments on Irish people living in Germany are strange to say the very least.
 
It's not the risk of loosing your live or ending up in a wheel chair, it's the risk to loose your money. Here is Ask About Money after all, not "sell some trash".
May I cite some figures from todays German TV:
First MDR (the East German TV), from today, 13/3/06, teletext page 162, Saxonia:The Verband Deutscher Wohnungs-und Immobilienbesitzer critisises the sale of the familysilver by the city of Dresden to Fortress, one hasn't thought about what the dinner looks like when eating from plastic trays.
What they mean is that Fortress bought the entire council houses of Dresden -build for the paupers- with the legally binding contract that the rent must not be increased for ten (10!) years. That means no new doors, windows, bicycle racks ect. for ten years- in a ghetto! The Bronx is luring around the corner....
And MDR teletext page 184, from today as well, Turinga (Thueringen):
The homeowner society (see above ) says that the availability of small flats is decreasing because of common poverty, people have to move from larger to smaller, cheaper flats.They can't afford the rent no more, no matter how small it is already in the east.
And ARD (the number one TV station in Germany), teletext from today, page 158:
Number of planning permissions/aplications in Germany are down by 10% !!
On a year to year base, 2005-2004, the number of planning permissions has been reduced to 240.500 , these are 27.000 less then in year 2004.
For two family homes (semi detached) the number has decreased by 26.1% and for single family homes by 9.8% .
Food for thought ?!
And Bayerntext (the Bavarian TV teletext) , today gives us the following situation:
The "Laenderfinanzausgleich" -where poor states are supported by the rich states- brought 90% of all moneys to "the east", 28.6 billion €s went from the west to the poor east.The financially stronger states of Bayern, Baden-Wuertemberg, Hessen, Nordrheinwestfalen and Hamburg payed 5.6 billions to the poor east and 1.2 billions to the poor west states.
On Wednesday, 15/3/2006, the German office for statistics will publish some demoscopic figures that should be closely watched: the Germans are getting less and less , particular in "the east". They are getting less children and those who still get children are poor. The fit and able ones emmigrate. It's called braindrain, something that the Irish have done for centuries. A farmer calles this phenomen irresponsible breeding.
What where the property prices like when that started to happen here ?! When the fit and able left and the rest set the houses of the foreigners ablaze?
 
Isn't Germany's biggest long-term problem its aging population? That equals inevitable population decline unless the economy can pick up and once again attract hundreds of thousands of immigrants. I assume this is what is required to make German property a good investment.

Btw Enda, I assume heinbloed is German so he may know what he is talking about.
 
I guess Heinbloed needn't bother applying as a job as a tour operator in Germany unless its for the "Chamber of Horrors" !

He has a truely incredibly depressing outlook.....why don't they just put the wall back up, eh ? Maybe build it out to the sea this time keep all the bloody capitalists out.
 
You wanted to hear "any opinions", but I delivered the facts. Must have misunderstood your agenda....
 
Yes, my agenda is to buy thousands of apartments in East Germany at a cheap rate, try to flog as many as I can to unsuspecting Irish punters at a huge profit and for the rest kick out all the tenants, level the lot and take out a Wallmart franchise and offer the tenants jobs sweeping up all my fifty euro notes.

Are you in ?

heinbloed said:
You wanted to hear "any opinions", but I delivered the facts. Must have misunderstood your agenda....
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Enda

People will be less likely to respond to queries raised on this site if their contributions are subjected to the sort of sarcasm that you display above.
 
I could imagine having a very interesting exchange here but when I am accused of having an "agenda" I'm afraid I am left with little alternative.

Please, I ask you to read some of the earlier opinions/facts on this subject which are bordering on the ridiculous and ask yourself if there are in fact offensive to Irish people.
 
cyp12 said:
look i live in germany hamburg to be precise and i really think ur way off the mark to be honest talking drivel irish people coming back in stretchers etc. Germany has very diverse and different property markets, berlin is different to hamburg hamburg is different to frankfurt were not talking about one mono property market here there are many socio economic issues which have to be considered. I do see good potential in germany as a whole but lets remember the buy to let/ property ladder idea does not exist in germany full stop so you simple do not have the level of market liquidity buying and selling that you have in uk /IRL hence if you wanna buy in leipzig dresden or anywhere in the east for that matter in the hope of turning a quick buck a la dublin style you are in the wrong market especially when you consider entry costs of 10-12%. Germany is long term steady and slow like the economy its not a turn and flip market something a lot of hyped up blinker wearing irish investors need to understand.
As far as the anti foreigner thing i think your slightly off there my friend.
Click to expand...

There is an excellent point raised here and that is, if an investor enters the German market, what/where is the exit? If the market is illiquid (and with , by all accounts, 80% of Germans renting, it must be very illiquid), then an investor must look to the income for a return. Otherwise, you're risking your investment on being able to sell the property (after the high entry/exit costs in Germany). Who will buy it from you and how do you know they will? These are basic investing questions, otherwise, you're a speculator.

Therefore, as an investor, you should be looking at very high income yields (if it was me, I would want at least 15% income yield and preferably 20%+ to compensate me for this risk - i wouldn't fancy waiting 15 years to get my money back, better off buying government bonds) . Now I am not familiar with the German market but its probably pretty hard to find a tenant who'll pay you these type of yields.

So can anyone tell me the business case for purchasing an investment property in Germany? Is there something I am missing (apart from the "low" prices - they are only "low" if you can sell again for much higher)?
 
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