Dublin - Law ?? and Order??

TheBlock said:
Completeley agree with this....It's actually a lot safer getting around dublin now than it was in the 80's.
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csirl said:
People seem to have forgotten the bad old days of dirty old Dublin in the 80s when much of the city centre was a dangerous ghost town after dark.
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The incidents I referred to in the initial post happened, in the city centre, on a Friday evening between 5.45pm and 6.15pm. I lived in Dublin in the mid 70's and never felt unsafe. On the 14th, I was VERY alarmed by the incident on the Dart. I was shocked by the incident on O'Connell St., that at rush hour, on the main street in our capital city, an incident occurred and there wasn't a Garda to be seen.

In my experience, the main street of ANY large town abroad, would have a visible police presence at such a time AND, if ANY disturbance arises, the police are on the spot immediately.

For the past few years, we have had a lot of "noise"/waffle/PR/spin - call it what you want - from our politicians, but very little real action.

I understand that the much heralded ASBO's have yet to be implemented (Anyone to comment on a case/report where one has been imposed?).

If O'Connell Street cannot be policed adequately during times of high public presence (like Friday 14th March, 6pm), then what hope have we for the rest of the country?
 
No offence, but your original post refers to coming across an aggressive racist on the train and the fact that you didn't see a Garda on O'Connell St. And that a group of people were being messy and people crossed the road to avoid them.

That's hardly a tale of urban terror. Admittedly headcases on public transport are both intimidating and annoying.

There usually is a Garda outside the GPO, as indicated by yourself, maybe they were off dealing with something?? I'm not defending the Gardai, or the alarmingly poor attitude to policing that they frequently display, but what would have changed if a Garda had been on O'Connell St?

The nutjob would have still been on the train, the group of lads/lassies would still have been walking around and you would have continued your journey, as you did, reaching your destination with all limbs intact and wallets in your pocket.

The fear of being assaulted is out of all porportion to the chances of it happening, in my opinion anyway. This sort of attitude isn't restricted to Dublin or even Ireland either.
 
Rovers1901 said:
No offence, but your original post refers to coming across an aggressive racist on the train and the fact that you didn't see a Garda on O'Connell St. And that a group of people were being messy and people crossed the road to avoid them.
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.....that was sanitised nicely......Why? To justify the last line of your post?

That's hardly a tale of urban terror. Admittedly headcases on public transport are both intimidating and annoying.
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One comes across "headcases" all the time, public transport or elsewhere. This individual was NOT your regular "headcase". What happened on the Dart went FAR beyond intimidation and annoyance. You may water it down all you like, but that's what occurred.

He/she might actually have assisted someone who'd been robbed...maybe even take witness details.... What do you think they might do?

I don't follow your line of arguement at all. You seem to feel that we should accept the type of behaviour referred to by me, and others in this thread, as being "normal" and acceptable...and, sure, it happens everywhere else too.

The fundamental point I am making throughout is that I do NOT find it acceptable. Nor do I accept that the authorities, including the politicians and Garda are doing an adequate job. I won't even award marks for effort.
 
I would agree with most of this, though I'm not convinced on the need for more legislation. This seems to be used as a knee-jerk response to take attention away from implementing the legislation that we currently have.
leghorn said:
If we have an environment where everyone has a fair, equal chance to make money, then both of these systems would be fine.
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Mmmm, now there's an interesting theory. Let me know when you think we have a fair, equal society. [Did you spot the recent press articles noting that kids from rougher areas of Dublin are 30 times more likely to end up before the courts than those from 'nice' areas?]

But even if we did have a fair, equal society, I really don't think that private, armed security guards are the answer. That's not the kind of environment I want to bring up my kids in.
 
Complainer said:
I would agree with most of this, though I'm not convinced on the need for more legislation. This seems to be used as a knee-jerk response to take attention away from implementing the legislation that we currently have.
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I agree with you there but more because the Judges choose to ignore the laws that the people, through their government, put in place. One example of this is the mandatory 10 year prison term for possession of large amounts of drugs, judges seem to think that most of the cases that go before them are exceptional and ignore this legislation. They may or may not be correct that such a law is a blunt instrument but it is not up to them to decide to ignore the will of the people in a democracy.

I'm from one of those rougher areas and I don't accept for a minute that it excuses in any way the behaviour of those who break the law or engage in antisocial behaviour. The biggest single reason that these kids are 30 times more likely to end up before the courts is that their parents did not do their job properly. The problem is social, not economic.

Complainer said:
But even if we did have a fair, equal society, I really don't think that private, armed security guards are the answer. That's not the kind of environment I want to bring up my kids in.
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I agree that this is not desirable but I don't think it is what was being suggested. The structures of this country are fair and equal. The rest is up to the individual. If a 10 year old kid is on the street at 11pm it is not the fault of the government, the police, the teachers or "social deprivation", it is 100% the fault of their parents.
 
I think no police force can eliminate crime. It happens. Drawing on one or a few incidents doesnt prove a thing.
The police need the support of the people as long as they are the only means we have in place of holding civilisation together. I've been in and around the city centre for most of my life and experienced very little crime. Of course when it happens and you didnt expect it, you feel powerless and shocked and upset and vulnerable and angry and a whole range of emotions but I think the good cops who do their jobs should be supported. Try putting yourself in their shoes with gougers everywhere with broken bottles who would love to stick one into a cop.
Whether the bad stories about cops are urban legends or not I dont know. I've heard rumors about fraudulent behaviour by cops in Kerry that still goes on among other things. It's disappointing to hear about it but crime is a part of human nature. The Guards by and large didnt create the crime. They merely are tasked with cleaning up after it. And when they go home to their families they are a part of ordinary society too. Thats what I see.
 
stir crazy said:
I think no police force can eliminate crime. It happens. Drawing on one or a few incidents doesnt prove a thing.
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I don't know if anyone is trying to 'prove' anything here. I think people are suggesting that
we need more active Garda involvement, and more support from Judges and from the community in making our society a safer and more pleasant environment for everyone to live in.


stir crazy said:
The police need the support of the people as long as they are the only means we have in place of holding civilisation together.
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Dramatically put, but they do need our support alright, and we need theirs.

stir crazy said:
I've been in and around the city centre for most of my life and experienced very little crime.
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Good for you. Many friends of mine have been mugged in Dublin. Just because you have been lucky enough not to experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is an 'I'm okay, Jack' attitude that won't serve you well if you are eventually a victim of a serious crime which could have been prevented in the first place with competent law enforcement.

Crime is a part of society, and law enforcement is a part of civilised society. The 'sh*t happens' attitude isn't of any use to society however, in terms of law enforcement. Yes the Gardai have to deal with scumbags. That is part of their job! If they didn't want that job they should have chosen a different profession! One chief role of the Gardai is to preserve law and order, and a 'crime happens' attitude is not one I would like to see in the ones I trust to preserve law and order on our streets.


I agree with this 100%, and it is another issue that we as a society have to tackle. I see more articles and letters relating to this issue in the papers recently - so I think it is something we are becoming more aware of.
 
I'd generally agree here.

Purple said:
I'm from one of those rougher areas
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Me too. Wanna play the Monty Python 'luxury' sketch game to see who had the rougher area?

I agree that parenting is a huge issue, but I don't share your certainty that it is the 'biggest single reason'. If you stick people in badly planned communities, with crap housing, crap facilities, crap transport links and crap employment prospects, then this environment is surely going to have an impact on the kids who are brought up there. I'm not stating this by way of excuse, and it is not about letting parents off the hook.

Even if you do just look at parenting, you have to go beneath the surface. Why is parenting so weak in this communities? It is not genetic or sheer laziness. Again, the poor economic status is the key underlying link between
these communities. It's not coincidence.

We are an awful long way from a fair and equal society. People die in the public health system that would have lived if they had private health insurance (Ref. Suzie Long). Children with disabilities are being excluded from some secondary schools (typically the 'better' schools). Children whose first language is not English can't get assessments for Dyslexia or ADHD because all the assessment materials and all the assessors are English-based.

I agree that parents are responsible for not having 10-year-old kids on the streets, but Daily Mail-type 'blame the parents' editorials fail to look at the root causes.
 

I'd have to say in one case, inner city Dublin was always close to most city jobs with the best transport and facilities available. It's up to the individual to exploit this as a responsible citizen. Therefore what is the root cause of crime in this case ?


Wrong though that may be, I see a negligible effect on crime as a result as those cases appear small compared to people who in my opinion have no excuse.


Purple said:
If a 10 year old kid is on the street at 11pm it is not the fault of the government, the police, the teachers or "social deprivation", it is 100% the fault of their parents.
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I agree with this 100%. I think parents should be made responsible for the effect of their children upon wider society. When dealing with the parents, the kid gloves need to be taken off.
 
First of all, while inner-city Dublin was indeed close to transport links, I had absolutely nothing else. Housing conditions in the traditional inner city Dublin in areas like Sherrif St, Summerhill, Cathal Bruga St, Constitution Hill, City Quay, Pearse House were pretty appaling.

Secondly, I don't claim to have all the answers. So why don't you tell me what you think is the root cause of crime in this case.

stir crazy said:
Wrong though that may be, I see a negligible effect on crime as a result as those cases appear small compared to people who in my opinion have no excuse.
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Maybe those cases aren't so small. People with disabilities make up about 10% of the population. And the examples I gave above are just that, some quick top-of-the-head examples. They do not by any means give a full picture of the inequalities that exist today. I've worked in the past in the disability sector, so it's an area I have some understanding of. If you want to start getting a fuller picture of the inequalities facility people with disabilities, look at the lack of access to decent theraputic services (e.g. speech therapy for children with learning disabilities, ABA education for children with autism, physiotherapy for children with physical disabilities), look at the lack of access to all levels of education for children with all kinds of disabilities, look at the lack of access to public transport, look at the lack of access to employment, and for those who do manage to get into employment, look at the lack of access to promotional and development opportunities, look at the lack of access to housing, look at the lack of access to cultural activities and entertainment etc etc etc.

Look at the big picture.
 
Complainer said:
Me too. Wanna play the Monty Python 'luxury' sketch game to see who had the rougher area?
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When I were a lad...

I agree that these are factors, major factors, but they make it harder for parents; not impossible.

Agreed that it’s a link but I don’t think it’s that simple. I think that the social attitude and the economic status are linked and feed each other. There are plenty of people (that I know) in these areas with more disposable income than I have. They just choose to spend it differently and have different priorities.


No society is perfect and usually attempts at social engineering beyond a certain point are counterproductive.

Complainer said:
I agree that parents are responsible for not having 10-year-old kids on the streets, but Daily Mail-type 'blame the parents' editorials fail to look at the root causes.
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I don’t read English newspapers but I take your point. I would add that editorials that excuse such bad parenting and discount it as a (if not thee) root cause are even more damaging.

Everything needs to be seen in context but ultimately we are responsible for our own actions and have the same duty and responsibility to our children, our neighbours and society in general as everyone else.
 

A roof over your head, a tv set, food, a school and a library plus easy transport into the city centre with parks and swimming pools etc was always available for most of these cases.
The most culpable people are in my opinion the parents. No matter what section of society you grow up in, your parents can make a huge difference to your life. This and wider society who might judge you for having a non middle class accent if you tried to leave the social box you grew up in. In that sense it begins with the parents but ends elsewhere.


Complainer said:
Maybe those cases aren't so small. People with disabilities make up about 10% of the population.
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Disability does not equal criminal and not all disabilities are the same.
When was the last time you were mugged by somebody in a wheelchair for example ? And what percentage of the criminal population have no such excuses ?
 
Purple said:
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No society is perfect and usually attempts at social engineering beyond a certain point are counterproductive.
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Do you consider equal access to schools for children with disabilities, and equal access to medical treatments for children from different nationalities to be 'social engineering'?
Purple said:
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Everything needs to be seen in context but ultimately we are responsible for our own actions and have the same duty and responsibility to our children, our neighbours and society in general as everyone else.
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I fully agree, but again I'd point to the big picture. Our responsibilities to society in general extend beyond making sure our kids aren't causing trouble. Our responsibilities include creating of a fair and equitable society. And yet, when we enter the ballot box, we will almost certainly vote on a 'what's in it for me' basis.

A 'roof over your head' doesn't quite adequately describe the housing situation in inner-city council housing or flats. 'food' doesn't quite describe the situation where kids are hungry by 11 am in school. It's kinda hard to give full attention to leaving cert maths when you're hungry.

stir crazy said:
Disability does not equal criminal and not all disabilities are the same.
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Assuming that you're not being deliberately obtuse, let me clarify that I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality. I was simply answering the claim that we have a 'fair and equal society'. We don't.
stir crazy said:
When was the last time you were mugged by somebody in a wheelchair for example ?
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A more interesting question might be when was the last time you were mugged by somebody with a mental illness or a learning disability?
 
Complainer said:
A 'roof over your head' doesn't quite adequately describe the housing situation in inner-city council housing or flats.
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I know exactly what is provided. Immense resources are thrown into housing council tenants who for example pay rent of 50 euro a week or much less where their neighbours in the private sector on the same road might pay 500 a week. They then often do not exercise their responsibility to stop their children from vandalising common areas. As a result common areas are left with minimum facilities (trees not being replanted for example) because the council has learned from experience that those facilities get vandalised again and again and more investment is simply throwing good money after bad. Unlike the private sector the council takes its responsibility to repair its dwellings very seriously and will repair the plumbing etc free of charge if a problem emerges. Double glazing, draught proofing and central heating systems are installed as a matter of course nowadays. Compare this to a damp and cramped bedsit, often with no shower or toilet for which a private sector landlord will often charge way more than a council tenant is paying for a 3 bedroom house with bath and garden and at the same time this private sector landlord will often refuse to make good any necessary repairs. Basically, anyone who has council housing has it made.

Complainer said:
It's kinda hard to give full attention to leaving cert maths when you're hungry.
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Again the fault of the parents. However I think at the leaving cert stage that the child is a young adult and will be capable enough to find food somewhere if there really exists a food problem. There is an abundance of food and supports in this country. A three course meal can be had in a Temple Bar homeless shelter for 1.60 euro for example.


Complainer said:
Assuming that you're not being deliberately obtuse, let me clarify that I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality.
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Why thank you for your good faith. If you are not attempting to create such a link then why raise the issue of disability within the context of criminality at all ?


Complainer said:
A more interesting question might be when was the last time you were mugged by somebody with a mental illness or a learning disability?
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I have written explaining my experience of crime earlier in this thread.
However how am I supposed to know if someone who is a criminal also has a mental illness or learning disability ? And if, as you claim, you are not attempting to establish a link between this group and criminality then why ask such a question ?
 
Complainer said:
Do you consider equal access to schools for children with disabilities, and equal access to medical treatments for children from different nationalities to be 'social engineering'?
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Yes, what else is it? I think it is desirable social engineering.
Communism is the intimate form of social engineering which attempts to create an equal society. It has been shown that this does not achieve the desired result. Any system which ignores human selfishness, the desire to protect and advantage your family and the fact that some people just work harder and/or are smarter than others is doomed to failure. That’s what I mean by too much social engineering. At the stage when parents can choose to sit on their asses because the state will provide a good life for them and their children we have passed the point where the damage to society outweighs the benefit to the individual. People should be helped to help themselves but they should not have things done for them in the long term which they should be doing for themselves.


That's why we have TD's from all over the country, if some people choose not to use their vote that's not my problem. When I vote I look at what’s best for me in an economic context but also from the point of view of the society I live in. A degree of wealth redistribution is necessary for a cohesive society but too much stifles ambition and rewards laziness. Where the balance should be struck is the question.
 
It is interesting to note that you assume that vandalism is caused by council tenants and not anyone else. What is your basis for this assumption?

Your assumption of double-glazing/draught-proofing/central heating is not the case for many, many council tenants. Come out and see the flats in Rosemount in Dundrum or St Nathi's in Churchtown, and you won't find much double-glazing/draught-proofing/central heating. I don't think the tenants in these developments would quite feel that they have it made.




Are you suggesting that Leaving Cert students should be expected to go to homeless sheters to get fed? And what about the primary school students? Do you want them to head into the city centre homeless shelter as well?

But lets just go with your 'fault of the parents' line. Why do you reckon that many parents in socially deprived areas are sending kids to school hungry? Were these parents born as 'bad people'?0


stir crazy said:
Why thank you for your good faith. If you are not attempting to create such a link then why raise the issue of disability within the context of criminality at all ?
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I'll explain it a second time then, seeing as you seemed to miss my explaination above. I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality. I was simply answering the claim that we have a 'fair and equal society'. We don't.


I ask such a question to highlight the narrow-mindedness of your question where you seem to equate wheelchairs with disability. The fact that mental health and learning disabilities are often not visible to the passer-by does not reduce their impact, and in some ways, it increases the impact.
 
Complainer said:
But lets just go with your 'fault of the parents' line. Why do you reckon that many parents in socially deprived areas are sending kids to school hungry? Were these parents born as 'bad people'?
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Good question. I think they are inadequate people who cannot cope with life and don’t have the skills to make sure that their children are fed. If either parent smokes even one packet of cigarettes a week then there is no excuse for one or two children to go to school hungry. Whatever way you look at it the problem is not financial, it’s social. Unless the parents are in some way mentally deficient then it’s 100% their fault. There is no reason why any child should go to school hungry, there are all sorts of services, both governmental and charitable, which are in place to stop this happening.

Who do you think is at fault?
 
Complainer said:
It is interesting to note that you assume that vandalism is caused by council tenants and not anyone
else. What is your basis for this assumption?
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Its' not an assumption. I have years of first hand experience both living in such areas and also in working with the council.
My solution is name and shame. An area should be given a fixed budget and if trees are vandalised for example. It should be made clear something like the following :' because the playground was destroyed therefore we have no money for 'insert worthy cause.'



Where in inner city dublin will you find unrefurbished flats or flats where no plan for refurbishment are in place ? As for having it made, try asking them to exchange their subsidised housing for a private sector bedsit landlord and see what kind of response you get.


Complainer said:
Are you suggesting that Leaving Cert students should be expected to go to homeless sheters to get fed? And what about the primary school students? Do you want them to head into the city centre homeless shelter as well?
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I think you'll agree its better than starving to death. If you dont think such a scenario is 100% the fault and responsibility of the parents then you are 100% wrong. The teachers, neighbours and health board will spot any signs of malnourishment. In fact anyone in wider society will spot this. Even a childs GP can prescribe health shakes which have enough calories and vitamins to get an elephant up mount Everest.


Complainer said:
Why do you reckon that many parents in socially deprived areas are sending kids to school hungry? Were
these parents born as 'bad people' ?0
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I think these people would buy and sell you such is your apparent naivety. Theres no excuse for any child going to school hungry.
Existance of such an excuse is a complete red herring. There is no excuse. Of course when it happens there is possibly a myriad
of reasons but the ultimate reason is negligence by the parent. Try walking into most of the 'council estates' in inner city Dublin and observe how many post 2002 or 06/07 cars there are parked in these places. I know. These places are no longer deprived and are close to facilities, jobs and transport even with everything within walking distance. It's my observation they spend their money and don't save it but money they most certainly have. The biggest problem this society had in the past was unemployment. Now the residents of formerly deprived areas have access to good employment and while getting paid a good wage they also have very little rent to pay. Thats what I call 'having it made.'
I would call any parent who does not feed his child a bad person. But it's not my observation that children in these areas are not well fed. It's my observation
that especially given our recent economic success that children in these areas get a lot of what they want and are well loved and taken care of in the majority.


Complainer said:
I'll explain it a second time then, seeing as you
seemed to miss my explaination above. I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality. I was simply answering the claim that we have a 'fair and equal
society'. We don't.
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Who claimed we have a fair and equal society ? Isnt' it obvious that until everyone is born with 2 arms and 2 legs and with the same amount of money, health
emotional stability and IQ that nothing will be equal ? Social enginering has limitations. Mother nature has seen to that. We are not empowered to play God.



I was'nt aware that a question had a mind. A person who uses a wheelchair is at minimum physically disabled therefore it is correct to equate a wheelchair user with having some kind of long or short term physical disability. Are you narrow minded enough to state that personal responsibility isnt an issue in any of these cases? Only a moron would think there is only one type of disability. You should be careful about unfounded assumptions causing jumping to erroneous conclusions especially since the style you're apparently comfortable with is in the asking of questions rather than the answering of them.

While the causes of crime are complex, the best practice is in my view all about the more efficient use of resources and not the communist approach of throwing an infinite amount of good money after bad because money is scarce and should be put to best use for maximum effect.
This is why the council stopped replacing vandalised street furniture and trees in many of even their best areas after the same vandalised benches and shubbery were destroyed about 20 times in a row. Whats the point of paying over big bucks to replace these items if these items are not appreciated and also if for example a mammogram machine can instead be purchased by the state with the accumulated savings ?
 
Complainer, do you accept that while there are often environmental factors which contribute to behavioural patterns ultimately adults are responsible for their own actions?
 
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