DTO journey planner - walking & cycling only

[oysterman]

Is the [broken link removed] of any use?

I'm sure it's been remarked on before but the Dublin Transportation Office website gives only 2 non-public transport options viz. walking and cycling. I wonder does the fact that they have never heard of the motorcar give any insight into why driving around Dublin is such an utter nightmare?

Originally posted here before being split into a separate thread - ClubMan.

 

[Capaill]

I wonder does the fact that they have never heard of the motorcar give any insight into why driving around Dublin is such an utter nightmare?

Originally posted here before being split into a separate thread - ClubMan.

Thanks Oysterman

That brought a smile to my face

C

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Oysterman

I am not sure what your point is? They have a walking and cycling planner on their website. I know my way around Dublin, so it's unlikely I would use it.

They have the bus and DART timetables on the site.

What are you suggesting? That the Dublin Transportation Authority should be facilitating private cars to further clog the streets? I think you miss the point.

Driving around Dublin is such a nightmare because everyone thinks that they have a God given right to drive and all the other cars are traffic, but theirs isn't. I cycle and walk around Dublin all the time and it's very easy to get around. It would be a lot easier if there were fewer cars.

Brendan

 

[ajapale]

Hi Brendan,

I not sure I agree with you entirely here.

Im not from Dublin but on my infrequent visits to our capital city it would be nice to be able to plan my travel around the city be it by car, public transport, walking or cycling.

I think it would benefit infrequent visitors to your beautiful city if their transport plans could be optimised among the ALL the different modes of transport availiable.

If the objective of the DTO is to discourage private car usage where does that leave people who want to use taxis?

ajapale

 

[ClubMan]

If the objective of the DTO is to discourage private car usage where does that leave people who want to use taxis?

According to (underlining is mine):

Vision Statement
The Vision sees the Greater Dublin Area as:

• a City and Region which embraces the principles of sustainability;
• encompassing a leading European City, proud of its heritage and looking to the future;
• having at its heart the National Capital, seat of government and national centres of excellence;
• a strong, competitive, dynamic and sustainable Region;
• a Living City and Region, on a human scale, accessible to all and providing a good quality of life for its citizens.

The next step was to translate that Vision into a series of more concrete, through still broad, objectives under five separate
headings.

The Regional Economy

• improve accessibility and reduce congestion;
• sustain economic development and regeneration;
• consolidate existing economic activity;
• encourage a further increase in participation in the labour force, particularly by disadvantaged groups in society;
• enhance goods distribution in a sustainable way;

Quality of Life

• reduce growth in the demand for transport, especially private transport;
• reduce the need for car commuting by improving the reliability, availability and quality of public transport;
• reduce travel times and congestion;
• ameliorate direct environmental effects of transport – noise, severance, air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions;
• promote cycling and walking as safe, sustainable and healthy means of transport;
• improve transport safety.

International and National Context

• act consistently with Government, EU and UN policies;
• improve accessibility to ports and airports for passengers and goods;
• improve accessibility to and from the Greater Dublin Area;
• foster sustainable development.

Development of the City and Region

• promote implementation of the Strategic Planning Guidelines for the Greater Dublin Area and the proposed National
Spatial Strategy;
• within the Region, consolidate growth in the Metropolitan Area;
• within the Hinterland Area, promote the self-sufficiency of the Development Centres.

Efficiency in Implementation

• optimise the use of existing infrastructure and facilities;
• promote sustainable land use;
• ensure timely implementation to meet sustainable transport needs;
• ensure the efficient and cost-effective use of resources – public, EU and private sector;
• ensure that legislative, institutional and administrative structures optimise implementation;
• maximise self-enforcement;
• ensure minimum disruption during construction and implementation.

During the course of the update, the Steering Committee set two additional quantitative objectives:

• reduce the level of congestion on the road network to 1991 levels, when the average speed in the morning peak hour
was 22kph;
•to provide adequate capacity for all journeys to work and education, which make up the vast majority of trips in the morning peak hour.

 

[dam099]

Hi Oysterman

I am not sure what your point is? They have a walking and cycling planner on their website. I know my way around Dublin, so it's unlikely I would use it.

They have the bus and DART timetables on the site.

What are you suggesting? That the Dublin Transportation Authority should be facilitating private cars to further clog the streets? I think you miss the point.

Brendan

I agree with the cars part, after all you have AA for that.

It is a shame though that they don't integrate public transport directly into the planner i.e. how to get from point A to B using both walking and public transport

e.g. Starting at A give walking directions to nearest public transport stop (bus or train) tell you what bus/train to take and where to get off, where to walk to for further connecting service (if needed) and then walking directions from your last public transport stop to the final destination.

 

[oysterman]

Hi Oysterman

I am not sure what your point is? They have a walking and cycling planner on their website. I know my way around Dublin, so it's unlikely I would use it.

But does that mean that the car shouldn't even be mentioned? Is the car in 21st century Dublin to become like sex in the 1950s?

People are going to drive places. That's simply a fact of life. Not suggesting routes to them will not stop them driving. It just means that the possibility of a coherent traffic flow system becomes more remote.

One example: I arrived in Dublin Port at the weekend (in a car - boo, hiss.....). It struck me that the non-native Dubliner was likely to be utterly lost within 2 or 3 kilometres at most. I had similarly arrived at port towns in Wales, England and France over the previous couple of weeks and it would have been something of an achievement in driver ineptitude to have got lost.

Brendan's view - that if you don't know your way around Dublin, then tough - seems to be widely held in transport administration circles in this country. I'm not sure it helps matters. Traffic emerging from a port is simple to direct away from traffic blackspots because visiting drivers will go where they're told. But you do have to tell them.

It shouldn't be impossible to develop a traffic flow model like most cities worthy of the description have. But you won't do it without signs.

And a Transportation Office which won't suggest to cars routes which will minimise traffic disruption - for all road users, including Brendan on his bike - is merely a post-modern joke.

 

[ajapale]

On relfection I think Ill invest in a good "sat nav" system for my infrequent visits to Dublin.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Aj asked:

If the objective of the DTO is to discourage private car usage where does that leave people who want to use taxis?

I think that taxis are regarded as public transport as distinct from private transport.

Hi Oysterman

They are trying to promote sustainable transport which is public transport and walking and cycling. There are plenty of other people promoting car use all the time. It's simply not the remit of the transportation office to do that. I suppose you could argure that if they help people find their way around by car easier, then there will be less traffic on the road, but I think it would be a waste of their resources to do that.

Brendan

 

[Gordanus]

Well, I thought I'd give this a try as my cycling routes around Dublin are quite different to my car driving routes. But it took too too long to give me an answer. My question is this; what route would it reccommend from Aisling Hotel to O'Connell St? The reason being was that I had to cycle that one time and went along the quays. NEVER AGAIN. The quays are too dangerous for bikes. There's a bike lane until the road narrows when the bike lane suddenlly vanishes. Having lorries thundering past, their mirrors almost clipping my helmeted head was enough to provoke the shakiest knees I'vve had since starting to cycle in the city centre. I'd rather take a longer, more convoluted route and stay alive.

 

[ClubMan]

I'm not sure that the DTO planner takes account of one way streets for cycling either and (as a sometime but somewhat lapsed) cyclist it always really annoyed me with the manner in which many (most?) cyclists disregarded many of the rules of the road (e.g. one ways, red lights, signalling etc.). However I've found the DTO planner pretty good for walking.

 

[CCOVICH]

I don't have any strong feelings on car usage in Dublin, but I think some sort of route planner would be useful (especially with the convoluted route around SSG and its environs since the introduction of the LUAS). But if the DTO want to discourage car usage, then it makes sense that a route planner for cars wouldn't be on their site. Someone mentioned the AA site, which is good for planning routes to/from Dublin to suburbs, towns etc., but it's no good for city centre trips.

 

[daltonr]

I must confess that site has me slightly confused. Out of curiosity I tried a Journey that I make most days Firhouse to SandyFord. I could only get walking directions. I couldn't get it to start at the Bus Stop down the road. At 164 Mins fora car journey that takes 10 minutes, I'll stick to the car for that Journey.

So I tried another journey that I make regularly. Firhouse to Ballsbridge.
Again I could only get walking directions. At 134 Minutes Walking, the Car still looks good. At least cars haven't slowed to walking pace yet in Dublin.

Brendan, Pretending Cars don't exist is a recipe for disaster. If there was a web site that could tell me a good route to take to an appropriate Park and Ride Facility, I'm sure many people would never bring their cars into the City.

My local Bus Stop is pretty much useless for most of the places I go in Town, but If I take the M50 and cut accross to the N11 and Park, I have choice of Luas, Bus, or Dart, all of which get me close to the places I go most often.

Due to the Hassle of Parking, when I go to Ballsbridge I drive all the way because I can park at the place I visit. When I go to Stephen's green I used to drive all the way, now I park in Leopardstown and take the Luas. Yes the Tallaght/Red Cow Luas is closer, but with the M50 the Sandyford Luas is actually quicker to get to than the Tallaght Luas. And it cuts out the need to walk for 20 minutes at the other end. Some of you might enjoy a brisk walk before a meeting. I don't.

The Car is as much a part of the transport system as any form of public transport. The over dependance on it results partly from peoples love of it. I like the comfort of driving. But a big part is the failure to integrate all the pieces of the transport puzzle, as described above.

I'm as big a car lover as you're likely to find, and yet, I can quite easily be encouraged out of my car by giving me somewhere to park near a regular public transport option that gets me close to my destination. We have a ring road around dublin that means I should be able to drive around to a point on a major Public transport Artery and get to my destination without going all the way to the city center and changing bus, or walking for half an hour.

If I can't park near public transport, I'll drive all the way. I don't care. Either way I get there in comfort.

Incidently could you pass the word on to any cyclist friends that you have that in the growing number of areas where cycle lanes are provided, we'd all appreciate if cyclists would use them. Because quite frankly if you all are that insistant on cycling on the roads, we should turn those cycle lanes back into roads so that everyone can use them.

-Rd

 

[ClubMan]

I must confess that site has me slightly confused. Out of curiosity I tried a Journey that I make most days Firhouse to SandyFord. I could only get walking directions. I couldn't get it to start at the Bus Stop down the road. At 164 Mins fora car journey that takes 10 minutes, I'll stick to the car for that Journey.

Er - that's the point. It is a walking and cycling route planner. It's not a public transport or car journey planner. Also - it's not supposed to be some panacea to transport issues around the city as some people seem to think.

Brendan, Pretending Cars don't exist is a recipe for disaster. If there was a web site that could tell me a good route to take to an appropriate Park and Ride Facility, I'm sure many people would never bring their cars into the City.

Grand - but the point is that the DTO's vision/mission/goal is to reduce dependance on private cars and to encourage use of other alternatives such as public transport, cycling, walking etc. I don't think that either they or Brendan pretend that cars don't exist though.

If I can't park near public transport, I'll drive all the way. I don't care. Either way I get there in comfort.

So we can expect that you won't complain if you get stuck in gridlock or can't easily find parking at your destination because others think the same way?

Incidently could you pass the word on to any cyclist friends that you have that in the growing number of areas where cycle lanes are provided, we'd all appreciate if cyclists would use them. Because quite frankly if you all are that insistant on cycling on the roads, we should turn those cycle lanes back into roads so that everyone can use them.

Who are you speaking on behalf of when you say "we"? Funny you should mention that but when I was a more regular cyclist I generally avoided off road cycle lanes which were generally badly maintained, shared with the pavement and stopped suddenly at laybys, bus stops etc. and, in my opinion, relegated cyclists to second class road users.

 

[RainyDay]

Brendan, Pretending Cars don't exist is a recipe for disaster. If there was a web site that could tell me a good route to take to an appropriate Park and Ride Facility, I'm sure many people would never bring their cars into the City.

This may be stating the obvious, but a website won't solve our traffic problems. The first issue would provision of an appropriate park-and-ride facility - the website can come later.

Incidently could you pass the word on to any cyclist friends that you have that in the growing number of areas where cycle lanes are provided, we'd all appreciate if cyclists would use them. Because quite frankly if you all are that insistant on cycling on the roads, we should turn those cycle lanes back into roads so that everyone can use them.

Will you pass the word onto to pedestrians to keep out of the cycle lanes?

 

[daltonr]

This may be stating the obvious, but a website won't solve our traffic problems. The first issue would provision of an appropriate park-and-ride facility - the website can come later.

Obviously the website can't direct us to Park and Rides that don't exist. But on another thread you seemed to be against Park and Rides as a first step. I think you were in favour of the DTO approach of walking or cycling to the nearst Public Transport. Are you coming around to the Park and Ride idea?

Will you pass the word onto to pedestrians to keep out of the cycle lanes?

I'm not sure they'd listen to me as I drive by. Perhaps if more cyclists used the cycle lanes and told pedestrians to get out of they way pedestrians would be less inclined to walk in those lanes.

If there is a problem with pedestrians driving cyclists back onto the roads then let's get rid of the cycle lanes. And leave the Footpaths for pedestrians.

Er - that's the point. It is a walking and cycling route planner. It's not a public transport or car journey planner. Also - it's not supposed to be some panacea to transport issues around the city as some people seem to think.

If they built a wesite that helped people plan their journey using all methods of transport, most importantly the link between bus routes, Dart Routes and Luas routes. This it might be useful. If their mission is to get people out of cars then a site like that might make an impact.

This site is preaching to the converted. It will be of most use to people who have already reduced their car use and are walking or cycling. The market they need to hit if they want to reduce dependance on private cars is the people who use cars who might be enticed to use Public transport.

The site is a good idea in itself, but I don't see it making much of a contribution (any contribution) to the DTO's stated aim of reducing private car use.

I wonder when they funded this project did they set any targets. E.g. that 1% of car journey's would be planned using this tool and walked or cycled instead. Or did they just build it as a gimmick that sounded like a good idea at the time.

So we can expect that you won't complain if you get stuck in gridlock or can't easily find parking at your destination because others think the same way?

Absolutely, no complaints on that front. Like I say, I'll take the overall most comfortable and quickest journey. If I can switch to public transport for part of the journey I'll do it, but only if it speeds up the journey enough to justify parking and waiting. The only complaint you'll hear from me is if I'm stuck in traffic with no viable public transport option.

In the 10 years of driving in Dublin I've managed to get around quite well.
Im more concerned with things like pointless Tolls and incorrect speed limits than with gridlock

You get stuck from time to time, but I'm fortunate that I rarely travel at peak traffic times. And I never have a problem getting parking at the other end.

I am perhaps also unusual in that I don't mind a 1 hour+ drive to the city center (I find it rarely takes me more than 30 minutes, but I can live with longer). As long as I'm warm, dry and comfortable and there's something decent on the radio, I'm happy. Perhaps it comes from 10 years of driving a 200 mile round trip virtually every weekend.

-Rd

 

[ClubMan]

You get stuck from time to time, but I'm fortunate that I rarely travel at peak traffic times. And I never have a problem getting parking at the other end.

I am perhaps also unusual in that I don't mind a 1 hour+ drive to the city center

You also seem to be unusual in not having problems getting parking, especially in Dublin city centre, these days. Can you explain how you manage this?

 

[CCOVICH]

You also seem to be unusual in not having problems getting parking, especially in Dublin city centre, these days. Can you explain how you manage this?

Outside of peak times and Saturday afternoons, I don't think that it's too hard to find parking in the city centre, especially around the quays.

 

[Gordanus]

>If there is a problem with pedestrians driving cyclists back onto the roads then let's get rid of the cycle lanes<
?????!
The biggest problem I have is CARS and MOTORbikes in the cycle lanes - especially those "optional" cycle lanes. (Optional for who? Not me!) After 7pm, there are no cycle lanes - and cars park in them, forcing cyclists onto the open road. The other problem with cycle lanes is that they often are shared with bus lanes. As I cycle down Rathmines Rd, I contend with the 14a,14b,15a,15b,15c,65,83. I would not allow my child to try it.
Safe cycling routes would also mean that parents could allow their children cycle to school, and maybe set them in healthier habits for life.
As for cyclists who disobey the rules of the road, you will notice that they are mostly young men. Young men are the most dangerous drivers; they also are inclined to drink excessively, take drugs, engage in violence, and in general take more risks than the rest of the population. Maybe we should ban all young men off the roads till the age of 25 for a start? (We could get them to take up boxing, football, extreme sports of any kind till their hormones die down a bit and they stop being a menace to society.)