Drummer never coming back now

[Duke of Marmalade]

Whatever chance there was that Drummer was going to respond to Garda requests to return for questioning is now surely scuppered as he would face the prospect of community service. The community need have no fear.

 

[Delboy]

What did Enda say...the best little country in the world in which to do 'business'.
At least successive Govt's have delivered on that!

 

[Marion]

I hope that we have plans and procedures in place so that these issues will not be evident in the future.

Community service - if that's all that's available , I'm for it!


Marion

 

[Purple]

The core issue is that state oversight of the banking system was not fit for purpose, not because of light or heavy touch regulation, thats a red herring. The reason was incompetence by the financial regulator and his office as well as, but to a lesser extent, the department of finance.

 

[Sunny]

Patrick Nearys performance during the trial was a disgrace. What size pension did he walk away with again? I thought the trial worked well and I have no problem with the sentence considering the way the judge summed up the case.

 

[DrMoriarty]

What size pension did he walk away with again?

€143,000 a year, €2,750 per week, for the rest of his life.

Just in case that additional €630,000 "golden handshake" doesn't work out, y'know?

Last year the Central Bank re-appointed ex-director general Tony Grimes, on an undisclosed salary (it was €249K in 2010) plus his current €65K pension. Presumably what clinched the re-hire was his assertion back in 2010 (when he retired just ahead of the Nyberg report) that he could do nothing but sit back and watch while Neary blew up the Irish banking system.

Ya gotta pay for quality, I guess.

 

[Bronte]

Whatever chance there was that Drummer was going to respond to Garda requests to return for questioning is now surely scuppered as he would face the prospect of community service. The community need have no fear.

Very convenient to blame the one that got away.

 

[cremeegg]

From todays IT

"Judge Nolan said the problem Project Maple sought to remedy was not caused by the defendants or by Anglo, but by Mr Quinn's "investment strategy" in Anglo"

Eh! No.

The problem was definitely caused by Anglo. The share price was in free fall because Anglo had been overvaluing the security for its loans. Anglo was lending money against assets that had value only because Anglo was lending money. Not Sean Quinn's fault

Can anyone explain how the judge came to such an odd conclusion?

 

[Sunny]

From todays IT

"Judge Nolan said the problem Project Maple sought to remedy was not caused by the defendants or by Anglo, but by Mr Quinn's "investment strategy" in Anglo"

Eh! No.

The problem was definitely caused by Anglo. The share price was in free fall because Anglo had been overvaluing the security for its loans. Anglo was lending money against assets that had value only because Anglo was lending money. Not Sean Quinn's fault

Can anyone explain how the judge came to such an odd conclusion?

That's not what happened. The Maple 10 transaction was entered into because Sean Quinn had built up a huge stake in Anglo through CFD's. Anglo at this stage had not lent money for Sean Quinn for the purpose. He was using his own resources. To unwind the stake, Anglo then lent money to the Maple 10 and to the Children of Sean Quinn (found to be a lawful loan) to buy phyical shares and unwind the CFD position.

Anglo were trying to fix a mess caused by Sean Quinn but Sean Quinn wasn't responsible for the underlying mess that was Anglo but that's another story... This case was just about the Maple 10 transaction and that was in response to actions by Sean Quinn although he didn't make Anglo enter into it.

 

[Purple]

From todays IT

"Judge Nolan said the problem Project Maple sought to remedy was not caused by the defendants or by Anglo, but by Mr Quinn's "investment strategy" in Anglo"

Eh! No.

The problem was definitely caused by Anglo. The share price was in free fall because Anglo had been overvaluing the security for its loans. Anglo was lending money against assets that had value only because Anglo was lending money. Not Sean Quinn's fault

Can anyone explain how the judge came to such an odd conclusion?

See this thread for the details on Seanie and the CFD's

 

[cremeegg]

That's not what happened. The Maple 10 transaction was entered into because Sean Quinn had built up a huge stake in Anglo through CFD's.

No. The maple 10 transaction was entered into because the Anglo share price was falling. If it had been rising there would have been no Maple 10. The share price was falling because the market was coming to understand that Anglo's business was built on sand.

Sean Quinn may have bet on the race but he didn't interfere with the horses.

 

[Purple]

No. The maple 10 transaction was entered into because the Anglo share price was falling. If it had been rising there would have been no Maple 10. The share price was falling because the market was coming to understand that Anglo's business was built on sand.

Sean Quinn may have bet on the race but he didn't interferer with the horse

Ah he did; his CFD transaction would have drastically changed the angle and velocity of the decent.

 

[Sunny]

No. The maple 10 transaction was entered into because the Anglo share price was falling. If it had been rising there would have been no Maple 10. The share price was falling because the market was coming to understand that Anglo's business was built on sand.

Sean Quinn may have bet on the race but he didn't interferer with the horse

No. The Maple 10 transaction was entered into because Sean Quinn held over 20% of the bank in CFD's. Anglo were convinced (with good cause) that hedge funds had become aware of this position and were betting against Quinn by shorting the stock thereby making Quinn post higher margin calls. They were betting they had bigger wallets than Sean Quinn and that eventually Quinn would be forced to unwind the positions because of the margin calls which would cause the stock to fall.

The maple 10 transaction would not have been entered into if that CFD position had not existed or at least you can't prove that it would have. The transaction was in direct response to the CFD holding. If Anglo simply wanted to support the share price, they would have just lent the maple 10 the money to buy shares and left the CFD's in place but they didn't because they were concerned rightly or wrongly about the damage the CFD's built up by Quinn were causing.

Remember this case is about one transaction. It's not about how or why Anglo because such a basketcase. I have no problem with the way the judge summed up the case.

 

[cremeegg]

See this thread for the details on Seanie and the CFD's

That is a great thread I particularly liked this from Sunrock

"Why would a rich self made man like quinn decide to take huge risks with financial instruments, that he probably didn`t fully understand? I suspect influential people or companies zoom in on very rich people to "invest" in their products.It just goes to show that even though he was very rich...made it the hard way....it`s still so easy to separate a fool from his money especially if the sharks or golden circle come calling."

It reinforces a long standing belief of mine that there is a huge difference between investment, where other people invest your money and business, where you manage it yourself.

Sean Quinn made money in every business he ran himself, cement, radiators, insurance. The day he got involved with professionals he lost everything. Its a warning to us all.

 

[Sunny]

That is a great thread I particularly liked this from Sunrock

"Why would a rich self made man like quinn decide to take huge risks with financial instruments, that he probably didn`t fully understand? I suspect influential people or companies zoom in on very rich people to "invest" in their products.It just goes to show that even though he was very rich...made it the hard way....it`s still so easy to separate a fool from his money especially if the sharks or golden circle come calling."

It reinforces a long standing belief of mine that there is a huge difference between investment, where other people invest your money and business, where you manage it yourself.

Sean Quinn made money in every business he ran himself, cement, radiators, insurance. The day he got involved with professionals he lost everything. Its a warning to us all.

The day he became greedy and decided to bet his entire fortune on what he considered easy money was the day he lost everything. It wasn't professionals that forced him to milk his insurance company to pay for his bet.

 

[Purple]

The day he became greedy and decided to bet his entire fortune on what he considered easy money was the day he lost everything. It wasn't professionals that forced him to milk his insurance company to pay for his bet.

Agreed.

Sean Quinn made money in every business he ran himself, cement, radiators, insurance. The day he got involved with professionals he lost everything. Its a warning to us all.

He was already in trouble because he bought an insurance company that was already broken and made it worse.
The Anglo punt might have been taken to sort out the Quinn Insurance mess.

 

[cremeegg]

The day he became greedy and decided to bet his entire fortune on what he considered easy money was the day he lost everything.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he decided to build a cement factory. He managed it himself and made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet a large part of his fortune the day he built Europe's largest radiator factory.He managed it himself and made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he got into the insurance business. He managed it himself and AFAIK made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he got into Anglo CDFs. He did not manage it himself and lost everything.

It wasn't professionals that forced him to milk his insurance company to pay for his bet.

Of course. Sean Quinn was a big boy and had to accept the consequences of his decisions. I feel sympathy for him but I am not suggesting that my tax money should be used to bail him out.

However I do think that Sunrock's point that very rich people are targeted for investment is absolutely true. In fact you don't have to be rich. This is not necessarily immoral or wrong but it is dangerous. The wealth management arm's of the banks draw up lists of the business people in a town and target them to sell their products. I am sure this happens on a larger scale to people who are wealthy on a national scale.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Having read the IT I have a nauseating feeling.

The Anglo two are portrayed by the judge as victims led astray by a wicked regulator in their selfless attempts to save their beloved bank from the ravages of a greedy man. This judge has no doubts who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.

"The men were not motivated by avarice or greed or the pursuit of profit but by a genuine though misguided attempt to save the bank". Mistaken heroes on a noble cause. Presumably by contrast the regulator was a wicked schemer out to line his own pockets.

Neary was a public servant on maybe 300K p.a. charged with an enormous responsibility which proved way above his pay grade. But I have no doubts that he was doing his best as a public servant.

Our heroes were masters of the universe who paid themselves millions and who lent themselves tens of millions of other people's money. We know from the Anglo tapes how much contempt the regulator was held in by the masters of the universe. One has no doubt that the judge was right that they were only motivated to save the bank. Anyone who had tens of millions at stake in shares, salaries, bonuses and pensions would share that motivation. What then does the learned judge think was motivating our wicked regulator?

Let's get this straight. Anglo brought this country to its financial knees. We can look for all the scapegoats we like, but this was not Neary's doing, it was not Quinn's doing. This was first and foremost the doings of the masters of the universe running Anglo.

The case should never have been taken. It was a mere technicality. It should have been seen that it would badly backfire. Seanie is a hero who can do no wrong. His fellow executives were led astray by a venal regulator when they tried to bail out a greedy man, all in a good cause, with a commendable disregard for their own self interests. In England the judge would be recommending them for honours.

 

[Purple]

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he decided to build a cement factory. He managed it himself and made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet a large part of his fortune the day he built Europe's largest radiator factory.He managed it himself and made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he got into the insurance business. He managed it himself and AFAIK made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he got into Anglo CDFs. He did not manage it himself and lost everything.

Can we be sure that the Radiator factory ever made money. The cement factory & quarry did. I'm sure his pubs etc did as well.
Quinn Insurance was an unmitigated disaster for Quinn and would have sunk him and the Quinn group even without Anglo. The UK Financial Regulator had already set their sites on Quinn Insurances due to their funding ratio's.

 

[Sunny]

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he decided to build a cement factory. He managed it himself and made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet a large part of his fortune the day he built Europe's largest radiator factory.He managed it himself and made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he got into the insurance business. He managed it himself and AFAIK made a great success of it.

Sean Quinn was greedy and bet his entire fortune the day he got into Anglo CDFs. He did not manage it himself and lost everything.

Who managed the CFD position? He did. He admits it himself. He wanted his family to independent wealth so he bet his entire shareholding in Quinn Group. Amazing how he is this amazing business man who makes great decisons until it all goes wrong and then it is someone elses fault. Sounds like he would make a good banker.

It wasn't greed that made Quinn set up all those businesses and succeed. That was just a brilliant business sense and he deserves great credit. It was pure greed that caused his downfall though. I think even he admits that.