Don't throw stones at bigger people than you they might be "Israeli"

Perhaps no one getting killed at all, its not a game, war dosent solve anything, how many years diod it take us to learn that lesson in this country...
 
johnnygman said:
Perhaps no one getting killed at all, its not a game, war dosent solve anything, how many years diod it take us to learn that lesson in this country...
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Of course war solves things.
War stopped National Socialism, war stopped the spread of Communism, war got us our independence, war gave America her independence and the ability to fight a war saved the people of Israel from total annihilation by their Arab neighbours in 1948 and 1967.

Is war a good thing? No
Do innocent people get killed in a war (even by the “good guys”)? Yes.
In the days leading up to the D-Day landing the Allies killed thousands of French men, women and children while they bombed from the air and shelled from the sea in an attempt to knock out key German targets. Wars are nasty and bloody affairs, there’s no way around it, but just as the Allied didn’t start the shooting in June 1944 the Israelis didn’t start it in 2008.

Question; If your neighbour was shooting at you and your family would you just let it pass because he had a crap gun and was a crap aim, or would you try to stop him?
If you tried to stop him would you do all you could to do so without getting killed or would you also use a crap gun because he had one and you were concerned about “proportionality”?
 

I probably wouldn't blow up a school to get him if that was where he was shooting from though. Especially if I knew the chances of him hitting a member of my family was quiet slim. How many Israelis have died from these rockets in the past five years? I am willing to bet it is a small percentage of the amount of palestinian civilians who have killed by Israel in the same period. And that's not trying to justify a terrorist act against Israel but proportionality has to come into it. Otherwise the police could justify shooting someone who was throwing stones at them.

And whatever about using crap guns, I certainly would find it hard to justify using weapons like these.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece
 
Sunny said:
And that's not trying to justify a terrorist act against Israel but proportionality has to come into it.
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What proportion would be suitable 50%-50%?

Are we going to view this as 1 Palistinian to 1 Israeli or should we go by % of population.

When does it become alright for Israel to protect itself from the rocket attacks?

It has to be remembered that if it shows any weakness in this issus the rest of its arab neighbours will get more involved.
 
Sunny said:
I probably wouldn't blow up a school to get him if that was where he was shooting from though.
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What if you dropped leaflets and called the school to tell them to get civilians out of it because you were going to blow it up (like the Israelis do)?
 

Where did I say Israel didn't have a right to defend itself against rocket attacks?

You can't take the concept of proportionality out of the equation because it is enshrined in international law. Deciding what is and isn't a proportionate repsonse is way beyond my pay grade though but I have seen and heard enough to cause me to begin to question some of its actions. Israel has the right to defend itself but it doesn't have a blank check on the matter. I would have reservations about bombing the university and the police stations and their very broad definition of enemy combatants for starters. And then there is the question of if they really are using White Phosphorus in a built up area.

There is no military solution to this problem. And do you honestly think other Arab Countries aren't going get more involved if this continues. There is already growing unrest in moderate Countries like Eygpt and Turkey. One can only imagine what Iran and the Hisballah in Lebanon are thinking. This campaign is the best advertisement for Islamic Extremist groups since Abu Ghraib.
 
Guess they didn't have time to send a letter.

[broken link removed]

Oh and you add Israel blocking foreign journalists from entering Gaza as another concern of mine.
 
S.L.F said:
It has to be remembered that if it shows any weakness in this issus the rest of its arab neighbours will get more involved.
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What other Arab countries would get involved if Israel were to cease operations now or for that matter if they did not commence them in the first place?

The greater danger as Sunny alludes to is the prospect of moderate governments in Egypt, Jordan etc coming under pressure from their own populations as they see more and more images of Palestinian suffering broadcast on their TV screens.

Israel has the right to take action against Hamas but the danger is any successes they achieve in degrading them militarily will be offset by creating instability elsewhere in the region and further radicalising Palestinian opinion. In particular, it places enormous strains on Mahmound Abbas and Fatah who could come out the real loser from this encounter.
 
I agree. Diplomacy will have to take place. It is the only think that will solve the problem, short of wiping out the entire population of Gaza (and while Hamas would not think twice about killing every Jewish man woman and child the Israelis would never sink to that level).
 
Sunny said:
Guess they didn't have time to send a letter.

[broken link removed]

Oh and you add Israel blocking foreign journalists from entering Gaza as another concern of mine.
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RTE are up there with Al Jazeera as one of the most biased and anti-Israeli media outlets we have access to in Ireland. Their TV news coverage of the conflict so far is sickeningly biased.
If I was Israel I would be wary of letting RTE into Gaza to broadcast their anti-Israeli propaganda.
 


Fair enough (I don't think RTE have anyone brave enough to go there anyway!) but surely not every international media from CNN to the BBC to the Washington Post is anti-Israeli. Why aren't they allowed in?
 
Sunny said:
Fair enough (I don't think RTE have anyone brave enough to go there anyway!) but surely not every international media from CNN to the BBC to the Washington Post is anti-Israeli. Why aren't they allowed in?
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I do take your point and so do the Israeli courts since they have required that the IDF let journalists into Gaza. I think they are looking to manage the whole affair but I do think the media should have access.
 
Nemesis said:
What other Arab countries would get involved if Israel were to cease operations now or for that matter if they did not commence them in the first place?
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Israel had no choice it had to start the bombardment and invasion.

Israel has to be seen to be tough as they are surrounded by enemies.

If Israel left Palestine tomorrow how long do you think i would take for the rockets to start again.

Nemesis said:
The greater danger as Sunny alludes to is the prospect of moderate governments in Egypt, Jordan etc coming under pressure from their own populations as they see more and more images of Palestinian suffering broadcast on their TV screens.
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Since the Palestinian people are broke where does the money for their rockets come from?


I think for Israel damned if you do and damned if you dont would be the most apt phrase.
 
S.L.F said:
Israel had no choice it had to start the bombardment and invasion.

Israel has to be seen to be tough as they are surrounded by enemies.
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I agree on both points

S.L.F said:
If Israel left Palestine tomorrow how long do you think i would take for the rockets to start again?
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Tomorrow evening?



S.L.F said:
Since the Palestinian people are broke where does the money for their rockets come from?
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Very good question. Let me add to it: If they can’t get aid in how did they get 8000 rockets in? (And just in case anyone thinks they are all locally made glorified fireworks they are firing 122mm Grad type Katyusha Missiles with a 40 mile range, not the sort of thing you McGyver up in the basement). The fact that the Katyusha missiles are getting from Iran, into Egypt, and then on into Gaza should show Israel who its friends are.


S.L.F said:
I think for Israel damned if you do and damned if you don’t would be the most apt phrase.
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Yep, that about sums it up.
 
johnnygman said:
Perhaps no one getting killed at all, its not a game, war dosent solve anything, how many years diod it take us to learn that lesson in this country...
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I'm guessing a long time since we still celebrate the 1916 uprising and the war of independence.


Tells you everything about how little the likes of Iran care about the plight of the Palestinian people and how they are viewed as little more than a political football to kick the Israelis with.


Got to concur on this front. They're not even attempting to show the Israeli side and barely bother to distinguish between Hamas militants and ordinary civilians in their reports.
 
Oops, just re-read my last post; the 122mm Grad type Katyusha Missiles has a range of 40Km, not 40 miles.
 
room305 said:
Tells you everything about how little the likes of Iran care about the plight of the Palestinian people and how they are viewed as little more than a political football to kick the Israelis with.
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Which goes back to the point about how the Arab world sold out the Palestinians in the 20's and particularly in the 40's when the Arab League found it more important to use them as a lever for their internal power struggle (between the Jordanian led group and the Egyptian led group) then to allow them to have their own representation or form their own government in exile. They didn't let a representative into their club (in the form of the PLO) in 'till the 70's. Maybe Arafat used some of the money he stole from his own people to buy a seat at the table or maybe it was his impressive terrorist record?
 
Just did a bit of searching on the net about the rockets they use against Israel.

The type of ordinance that goes into some of their rockets makes for interesting reading.

1 of their rockets carries 40,000 ball bearings so anybody within a 50 meter radius is either dead meat or going to be very badly injured.

I don't know what these rockets cost but I'll bet it would be more then I make in a month.

Imagine if the characters who fund this terror were to put their money into helping the Palestinian people instead of giving them rockets.
 
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