Do teachers protest too much, about pay and work?

[Clamball]

Just following on from a topic I read earlier where once again someone said teachers were really well paid had a great pension and brilliant working hours. The teachers reply that no one can understand how hard they work and the pay is not as good as before, has been eroded. And if people are really jealous of teachers why not become one, there are loads of vacancies.

So what are the arguments.

My mum was a national school teacher, trained for 2 years, started working at 19, retired with 40 years service at 59, about 25 years ago. Every time teachers get a pay rise her pension increases, she is probably getting more now in her pension than in her wages when she retired.

She worked hard, there was no maternity leave, she had to pay a sub from her wages to cover her while out on maternity leave. She worked until the day my baby sister was born. Conditions were poor in the school, very bad heating etc. I did see her doing prep work for school at home, but it was not significant. All in all she rarely worked outside the 9-3 school hours, she was available before & after school to meet with parents. She was on holiday when we were on holiday. It seemed an ideal job really. The Irish requirement killed it for me, I was pretty useless.

Nowadays I see trainee teachers really really struggle to get full time jobs, second level seems to be odd hours here and there, and primary is all subbing, with no 12 month contracts. But once people are permanent and pensionable they appear very happy with their lot. The work appears to be equally as hard as anyone else’s with deadlines, stresses etc. But like many people working for the government they are protected from commercial realities, like poor wage increases, redundancy, companies downsizing, etc.

 

[Purple]

The up side from 30 years ago;
Class sizes are much smaller and there are significant supports like classroom assistants etc for teachers. I was in a class of 48 pupils in third class. That just doesn't happen anymore. Now they just won't let your child into the school rather than putting another desk and chair in the room.
Better maternity leave (nearly all primary teachers are women so that matters).
Career breaks (how are these given when there's a shortage of teachers to replace them?)
Very long holidays.
Short hours.
Very well paid relative to other graduates at early stage of career but flat-ish salary scale.
Better trained so should find the job easier.

Down side from 30 years ago;
Far more demands from parents (probably the biggest issue).
Much broader curriculum.
Expected to take much of the parental role in forming the character of the child rather than just teaching them.
It takes longer to qualify.
Working hours are short but ridged.
There's no hiding place if you're having a bad day.

As for the moaning:
What I don't get is that teachers, probably as much as nurses, seem to require the constant gratification of strangers. If they tell you they are all wonderful, and by god do they tell you that they are all wonderful, and you don't gushingly and instantly agree you are looked at like you're some sort of monster. No other sectors does as much moaning and talks themselves up as much as those two. Is that insecurity or something else?

We all had great teachers and we all had rubbish ones. My children have all had really good and really bad teachers. Definitely more good than bad. Why do they seem to take such offence at the notion that out of the 120,000 or so teachers in Ireland some of them are no good at their job?

 

[redstar]

While I was at school in the 70' and 80's teachers were always threatening industrial action over the usual suspects - pay, pensions, performance measurement, implementation of curriculum changes etc....

Overall, I don't see too much has changed ... (maybe less strikes nowadays)

 

[Purple]

While I was at school in the 70' and 80's teachers were always threatening industrial action over the usual suspects - pay, pensions, performance measurement, implementation of curriculum changes etc....

Overall, I don't see too much has changed ... (maybe less strikes nowadays)

I think they are significantly less bolshy than they were in the 70's and 80's. The "going to the ATM" pay rises/Benchmarking during the boom years probably helped.

 

[Deiseblue]

From memory , the last major teacher’s strike took place over 50 years ago in 1969 .
I had just started secondary school at the time and the joy amongst students was pretty universal , a view not shared by our parents!
There was to be a further all out strike about a year later which was averted at the last minute , I remember throwing my radio against the wall when the news broke .
I worked in a furniture factory , a flour mills , a brewery & a fruit company before settling into a sedentary role in Banking & the one constant in every job was moaning about pay , terms & conditions- thankfully I had an outlet for justified moaning in that I was always employed in a unionised workforce.
Moaning is a constant across all sectors !

 

[Protocol]

Teachers are well known to be moaners.

However, to be fair to them, they are dealing with teenagers / social problems, etc.

They are sort of expected to be social workers.

I have sympathy with them in that respect.


Also, there is a world of difference between pupils in good schools, and the apathetic pupils in poor schools.

 

[thedaddyman]

What bugs me is that the instant they get the permanent job, they seem to be off to Dubai for 2 years knowing they have a job to return to meaning kids end up getting taught by a collection of subs.

I have sympathy for them, dealing with the little princes and in particular, dealing with the parents. And a lot spend a fair amount of time on extra-curricular activities that they don't contractually probably need to be involved in but you can see the difference their involvement means to the kids. And they have a lot of holidays.

But they do moan far too much given they almost certainly have a job for life once made perm.

having said that, I'd never chaperone a foreign student trip full of students

 

[Firefly]

As for the moaning:
What I don't get is that teachers, probably as much as nurses, seem to require the constant gratification of strangers. If they tell you they are all wonderful, and by god do they tell you that they are all wonderful, and you don't gushingly and instantly agree you are looked at like you're some sort of monster. No other sectors does as much moaning and talks themselves up as much as those two. Is that insecurity or something else?

What about the poor farmers?

 

[odyssey06]

They doth protest too much...

To paraphrase Shakespeare!

Subconsciously is it a defence mechanism as they know any real examination of their conditions would give the game away.

 

[Purple]

What about the poor farmers?

Good point! While they take whinging to a whole different level and most of their income comes from handouts but it’s bloody hard work and a very uncertain income from the actual farming side of it.

 

[cremeegg]

A graduate who decides to train as a chartered accountant may have their fees paid and a contribution to living costs from one of the big firms, with a virtual guarantee of a job on getting the Masters.

A graduate who decides to train as a teacher will have to pay fees (about €12k) and meet their living expenses, with virtually no chance of securing a job on getting the masters.

As of posting there are 419 positions advertised on Education posts, of which 6 are permanent jobs.

I have suggested that this means only those who cannot do better for themselves become teachers, although I was impressed by the counter argument that anyone who enters teaching today has a vocation for it. They don't do it for a 'good job'.

If you are good at it, teaching is an easy job, if you are not it must be an absolute nightmare. Not many people would like to do a job to an audience of 25, 15 year olds.

 

[thedaddyman]

an awful lot of the temp jobs get converted to perm after a year or 2

 

[Purple]

A graduate who decides to train as a chartered accountant may have their fees paid and a contribution to living costs from one of the big firms, with a virtual guarantee of a job on getting the Masters.

A graduate who decides to train as a teacher will have to pay fees (about €12k) and meet their living expenses, with virtually no chance of securing a job on getting the masters.

As of posting there are 419 positions advertised on Education posts, of which 6 are permanent jobs.

And yet there's supposedly a shortage of teachers. The problem may be that there are lots of career breaks and exits from the sector.

I have suggested that this means only those who cannot do better for themselves become teachers, although I was impressed by the counter argument that anyone who enters teaching today has a vocation for it. They don't do it for a 'good job'.

And a HDip takes two years now and not one. Lots of people fell into Secondary School teaching years ago because they didn't know what else to do after their Arts degree. I think there's far less of that now.

I don't buy the vocation argument though. If the answer to the question "would you keep doing it if you won the Euro Millions?" is "Yes" then it's a vocation. If not it's a job. People can like, even love, teaching in the same way that people like or even love Carpentry but for the vast majority of people who do them they are jobs.

If you are good at it, teaching is an easy job, if you are not it must be an absolute nightmare. Not many people would like to do a job to an audience of 25, 15 year olds.

Agree 100%.

 

[TRS30]

As of posting there are 419 positions advertised on Education posts, of which 6 are permanent jobs.

Maybe if it was easier/possible to get rid of poor performers there would be more permanent jobs.

 

[Purple]

From memory , the last major teacher’s strike took place over 50 years ago in 1969 .

There was a strike in 2020 about the two tier pay system which, ironically, was agreed by their Unions after the crash when they sold young teachers down the river, along with children with additional needs, to protect their own pay and conditions.

 

[cremeegg]

Maybe if it was easier/possible to get rid of poor performers there would be more permanent jobs.

There are a lot less poor performers than there used to be. It is much easier for a teacher who hates teaching to move into a role with the Dept. of Education, or one of the local education centers.

Teachers who enjoy teaching are usually good at it.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

primary is all subbing, with no 12 month contracts.

My kids’ primary school (Dublin) recently got zero applications for two advertised posts. Several teachers are fresh out of training in their early 20s.

I think it’s good pay somewhere rural but in urban areas it’s not great.

 

[cremeegg]

My kids’ primary school (Dublin) recently got zero applications for two advertised posts. Several teachers are fresh out of training in their early 20s.

I think it’s good pay somewhere rural but in urban areas it’s not great.

We’re the advertised posts, actual jobs or temporary/maternity cover.

Typically about 2% of advertised posts are permanent jobs.

Right now education posts has 269 vacancies for post primary teachers of which 4 are permanent jobs.

 

[Purple]

We’re the advertised posts, actual jobs or temporary/maternity cover.

Typically about 2% of advertised posts are permanent jobs.

Right now education posts has 269 vacancies for post primary teachers of which 4 are permanent jobs.

Yes, but if they are any use they will be made permanent within a few years.

 

[cremeegg]

Yes, but if they are any use they will be made permanent within a few years.

Not too likely if it’s maternity leave.

If a school has a permanent job to offer why would it only offer a fixed term contract ?

No sensible industry would operate on that basis, and then complain about staff shortages.