Do private schools boost college opportunities?

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jim

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Clamball said:
I don’t know if you are thinking of private secondary which really boosts their college opportunities
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How?

Any evidence for this?

I would have thought it doesnt matter as its a points based system.
 
jim said:
Any evidence for this?

I would have thought it doesnt matter as its a points based system.
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There is some evidence, but also plenty of diverse views on this site. Perhaps we should add to that topic rather than derailing this one.

The only reason I brought it up in this thread was for the poster to consider if they wanted to fund fee paying x 4 for the second level years.. Given their oldest is 10 they are now making decisions around second level and it is something to factor into his plans.
 
No i get why you brought it up and its a valid and relevant consideration.

I just think it was a sweeping and misleading statement that you made i.e private fee paying schools boosts attainment of college place.

The evidence you linked doesnt support your assertion at all. That links simply says that students in fee paying private schools are likely to progress to courses with higher points.

But you said that private school attendance boosts college opportunities, it doesnt.
 
Also don't want to derail....but as a teacher in many different types of schools being in a fee paying school definitely doesn't help one get to college. The parents I spoke with understood that. They wanted their kids there for the networking opportunities and increased sports/trips as the school had money to spend on those.
 
I think if you live in Dublin, there is a choice to be made. Often your nearest secondary school or the one you might get a place in due to legacy is fee paying. I've had people asking us our plans since pre school age as people plan based on feeders from primary. It's not always a decision based on academic output.

And as that op has 4 kids, it's very relevant to the money makeover as it will have an impact on cash flow and investment decisions.
 
There might be a ‘choice to be made’ but if anything in Dublin especially it makes no difference in most areas to college opportunity. The best schools for college entrance are generally non fee paying but in the same areas as fee paying schools. If anything the best way to guarantee your kids go to college is to live in any ‘good’ area of Dublin and send you kids to the nearest school which will likely have 90-100% go to college. Whether it’s colaiste Eoin or Isagain, Dominican college Blackrock or Griffith Avenue, blackrock college or CBC Monkstown, or mount anville, holy faith clontarf or Synge street cbs. . It’s not about the fees, it’s where they are.

If anything by far the best results would be to send your kids to a gaelscoil in these areas as they consistently out perform fee paying schools.

The only real case for fee paying as affecting college opportunity is outside the bigger cities in an area of poor performing local schools. I know a couple of people living outside catchment of local decent schools and going fee paying for that reason.
 
Well, the parent who said it to me lately realised their child wasn't going to be a high achiever academically. Had some notion that at least if he had well-heeled friends one of them might help him get a job one day. All seems mad in country where there are lots of college places, lots of jobs, and employers don't care about Ivy league schools like in the US.
 
I have a cousin who used to be a school inspector and he would often say that the quality of the Principal was the most important factor in how a school performed.

Where a Principal is enthusiastic, energetic and engaged, it sets the culture for the rest of the teachers and pupils.
 
I think the student’s ability, focus and determination are key as well as their environment be it in their school but more importantly in their home. Parents who see the education as important might decide to send their children to private school and/or provide additional support directly or indirectly when needed.
 
jim said:
The evidence you linked doesnt support your assertion at all. That links simply says that students in fee paying private schools are likely to progress to courses with higher points.
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Maybe I poorly worded my statement Jim, as I was trying to say what you are saying here, kids who pay fees are likely to end in in courses with higher points. So if the kid gets 20, 30 or 50 higher points by fee paying then they have greater opportunities as they have a greater choice of courses.

Smaller class sizes, focus on teaching the courses to a H1 standard all give the pupil the opportunity to get more points. While it might not happen in college feeder secondary schools, some subjects in more rural schools may only be taught to a H3 level. (Wildly generalising, I know) but for a good determined student they will not have the ability to get a H1 if they are not taught to that level. Some teachers do tell those kids, so they can take on grinds or move school to get the level they need.

Good students will probably achieve in any environment, kids who are less academically inclined may get that 10% boost that gets them over the line if the parent pays for grind schools, private tuition, extra subjects outside of school, or fee paying schools. It is a gamble dependant on the child. But if you can afford it or budget for it, it may end up being worthwhile.
 
I’d say it’s not a simple fee paying v state. But look at your options for the kids.

What catchment areas are you in?

What are the options?

And what suits your kids?

For instance our local state options were single sex religious run. Not my jam.
 
I’ve seen many college friends who were very average academically but great at being one of the lads, great at “networking”, become MDs and Heads of very large departments, and start very successful companies.

Some of the high achievers academically have done ok too. But overall it matters little. That might not be the case in medicine or law perhaps, but in “business” it’s all so open and anyone can achieve anything they put their mind to and people relationships are very important.

So when it comes to schools, well they are only a stepping stone to the next level with 3rd level education and once you start working it is never thought about or asked about again. That’s a sweeping statement and no doubt their are many exceptions.
 
Clamball said:
Maybe I poorly worded my statement Jim, as I was trying to say what you are saying here, kids who pay fees are likely to end in in courses with higher points. So if the kid gets 20, 30 or 50 higher points by fee paying then they have greater opportunities as they have a greater choice of courses.
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Ah, the old post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy! We lads who went to private schools learned enough Latin to know what that means.

The fact that event A is followed by event B doesn't mean that event A caused event B. The kids who come from homes where the parents can and do pay school fees may have other social and educational advantages that lead to them getting (on average) higher points than the kids who come from homes where parents can't pay fees, or choose not to.

Simply paying fee doesn't magically mean that your kid gets higher points. But if you're motivated to pay fees you may also be someone who is motivated to read to their children from a young age; to support, encourage and reward their children's educational endeavour, etc; to foster habits and attitudes that conduce to improved academic performance; etc, etc. And, to the extent that this is true, all that would tend to result in your kids getting higher points even if you didn't pay the fees.
 
The Indo & Times publish feeder tables every year showing the percentage of those sitting the leaving cert in every school across go on to 3rd level with details of where they go.
 
TomEdison said:
The fact that event A is followed by event B doesn't mean that event A caused event B. The kids who come from homes where the parents can and do pay school fees may have other social and educational advantages that lead to them getting (on average) higher points than the kids who come from homes where parents can't pay fees, or choose not to.
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I always thought that the distinction wasn't between parents who could afford to send their children to fee paying school sand those who could not, rather it was between parents who could afford to spend a million euro on a house and those who could not.

The social apartheid inherent in being able to live in particular areas is far greater than the ability to come up with €5-6k a year to pay for a school.
Therefore to those who live in expensive leafy suburbs and opine the inequity of private schools, ask yourself if you lived in a socially deprived area but wanted your children to have a pier group which had, for want of a better phrase, a middle class mindset, which is a more attainable option; spend the bones of a million euro on a house in the right area of find the money to pay the fees.
 
TomEdison said:
But if you're motivated to pay fees you may also be someone who is motivated to read to their children from a young age; to support, encourage and reward their children's educational endeavour, etc; to foster habits and attitudes that conduce to improved academic performance; etc, etc.
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I fully agree.

My son went to private school and to be honest I was a bit underwhelmed with the quality of offering relative to the local school.

The difference, as I came to understand, was in a shared mindset. Sure there were some families for whom 6000 a year was loose change but for most families there was at least some element of sacrifice. There’s still a lot of alternatives for the use of thousands of euro.

There was almost a community of like-minded people with a shared view that the sacrifice was worth it if it meant a leg up for their offspring. Whether it was/is of course is a matter of opinion.
 
Salvadore said:
My son went to private school and to be honest I was a bit underwhelmed with the quality of offering relative to the local school.
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I’m having the same experience. Teachers in the fee-paying school are no better (and possibly worse) than the secondary school I went to which had disadvantaged status at the time.

You’re paying for a select peer group for yourself and your child.
 
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