Dirt to 41% + 4% PRSI = 45%; no USC

I wonder if some NTMA products will be treated differently than other eg maybe PRSI would be payable on the solidarity bond yearly interest but not on the bonus or on the interest from savings certs/bonds.

Yeah, perhaps, we obviously need to wait for the Finance Bill for complete certainty. Hopefully, the Finance Bill will be published early given that the budget has been announced early.

I bet the NTMA are lobbying the DoF for State Savings income to be fully exempt from PRSI. Maybe the DoF will look for a NTMA rate cut in exchange!
 
I hope I'm wrong but I don't think any distinction will be made between 4 and 10 year bonds and the totally DIRT free products. The more I read about PRSI the more I can see it not being considered as a tax.
 
Great spot Theresa, in particular the below quote from Noonan.


It increasingly seems likely / possible that any State Savings income that is subject to DIRT will also be subject to PRSI if the individual has over €3,174 in unearned income per year.
 
Another subtle change I have noticed when I compared the NTMA Brochure 3 from July 2011 with June 2013 under the question "will my return be subject to tax?"

"The lump sum bonus payments for the 4 year and the 10 year bonds are not subject to"

"Tax" - July 2011

"DIRT" - June 2013

i.e The word Tax replaced with the more limited abbreviation Dirt.
 
oldtimer smartly mentioned state savings bonds in this discussion and the possibility for even better interest now compared with banks due to the new tax rules:

...however I wonder where the 5% interest come from. Looking at the statesavings.ie (as a new user I can't post urls) website, a gross AER of 3.05% is listed. Did it just decrease is all or am I looking at the wrong information? Thanks!
 
.
..however I wonder where the 5% interest come from. Looking at the statesavings.ie (as a new user I can't post urls) website, a gross AER of 3.05% is listed. Did it just decrease is all or am I looking at the wrong information? Thanks!
Gross AER on the 10 year SB is indeed 3.05%. Based on current rates, no PRSI and 33% DIRT, net AER is 2.79%.

The yearly interest on the SB is subject to DIRT and possibly PRSI. Assuming that the bonus on the SB is not subject to tax:

If DIRT+PRSI on the yearly interest is 41% I calculate the net AER to be 2.73%

If DIRT+PRSI on the yearly interest is 45% I calculate the net AER to be 2.70%

So, a big jump in tax from 33% to 45% doesn't make that big of a difference. Also, the higher the tax goes the bigger the gap between the SB and bank deposits as all the return on bank deposits is affected by the tax rise whereas the bonus of the SB (which makes up most of the return) is unaffected.

The ~5% figure that people are quoting is the "grossed up" return i.e the gross interest that you would need to get from a bank deposit to get the same net interest as the SB.
 
Exactly, you will never see the 5% return, it is purely a comparable rate in order to compare against the AER paid on normal deposit accounts.

Another subtle change ...

Good spot Theresa, this adds weight to the possibility that bonus interest will be subject to PRSI on 'chargeable persons'.
 
The Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2014 was published yesterday.

The provision related to PRSI is as follows:


The bill will obviously change before been passed.
 
PAYE workers have always had to file a return if they have non-PAYE income.

A low percent will know how to do this.

Deduction at source @4%, with an electable claim back option, would yield a much higher return for the government.

Totally agree.

Self declaration will be very low. Taking it at source makes far more sense. I imagine this will be rectified in 2015 or so once they see little income coming in
 
If indeed the €3174 is the limit below which Prsi will not be payable, how would the bank know the depositor's income? So it can't be taken at source by the bank.
 
If indeed the €3174 is the limit below which Prsi will not be payable, how would the bank know the depositor's income? So it can't be taken at source by the bank.


Every bank account would be hit with the 4% and then if your under €3174 you would have to apply to revenue or social protection to get 4% back.
 
Whole thing certainly very messy isn't it? Wonder if the 3174euro threshold includes deposit interest before or after DIRT deducted?
 
This whole thing has the potential to be very messy. Say for example one earned 4174euro in Gross interest...is one then liable for PRSI on all of this, or just the 1000euro above the threshold?

Also, how does one declare a PRSI liability if you haven't needed to make a return before...on PAYE anytime online when claiming tax relief for health expenses etc? But is this not only for PAYE matters? Is PRSI not a separate matter? And when would one make such a declaration? Also, would certificates of interest be needed if one had deposit interest income across a number of financial institutions?

And, if a depositor had a fixed term account that spanned more than a year, when would the PRSI liability on interest arise? I think this whole action of squeezing depositors is wrong..but if they had any sense the government would levy the PRSI at source and allow eligible individuals to claim a refund. If not, one wonders what the level of compliance will be, if only simply because of the level of hassle and bureaucracy involved.
 
As far as i know the decision not to deduct at source was made and the €3174 rule is actually a tool to ensure that huge numbers of people do not make tax returns. At the moment, earn €3175 and you'll pay PRSI on the lot, earn €3173 and no PRSI is due. If the decision was made to deduct at source this rule could be removed.
 

So it would appear that some people may be looking for lower interest products. For example, PTSB give 2.45% for a 1-year savings account. This means that, if they introduced the exact same product running alongside this one, but at a 2.4% rate, someone with €130,000 to deposit for the year would be better choosing the lower rate for PRSI reasons. Interesting!
 
I agree ronaldo - I'm concerned that I might be close or over the €3174 - I've moved most of my savings into state savings and have bonds and certs maturing at different dates so it would be tricky to work out year to year what I'm getting.

I have even considered getting prize bonds rather than 10 year solidarity bonds because of the €3174 'barrier'. It's a crazy situation - i don't have a highly paid job but yes I certainly like saving money - it's nearly a hobby for me.
 
Clarity is needed in both in terms of the obligation to make a tax return and the obligation to pay PRSI. Let's say someone has an An Post savings cert which accrues 4000 per year and a deposit account which pays 1000 gross per year. First question would be as already posed by BeyonddePale, how are multi year products treated.

In the above case, assuming that yearly income is deemed to be 4000 from the savings cert (even though the cert has not matured or been encashed) and 1000 from a deposit account is it a Form 11, Form 12 or no return at all and is PRSI payable on
a) 5000
b) 4000
c) 1000
d) 5000 minus 3174
e) 0

In the case of solidarity bonds it gets more complex as the SB may be treated differently in terms of PRSI than other state savings products, also the two components (interest and bonus) of the SB may be treated differently from each other.
 

Surely, the accrual period has nothing to do with it, like with DIRT. The payment date, rather than the accrual period, is surely what matters.

d) 5000 minus 3174

There is a PRSI minimum threshold but there is no PRSI 'free allowance'. Hence, one cannot simply deduct 3,174 if they get more than 3,174 in unearned income per year.