Did you hear the news . . . the Recession is over

starlite68 said:
cost of living for a start....in this poxy little island as you put it.
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Agree 100% with purple.

Talking about races to the bottom, focusing job creation on the high value end of the market, higher costs of living in this country (as if we are some special closed circuit economy where this is sustainable) and telling people they should try living on social welfare are tired, hackneyed misleading statements.

In the same way the idea of incentivising effort is not comprehended by the intellectually bankrupt left, there also seems to be some serious mental obstacle to figuring out that our higher costs of living are driven primarily by the fact that our labour costs are high, and consistent with having one of the highest minimum wages in the world.

Our wages are higher than those in the UK and Europe and our social welfare is way higher than elsewhere in the UK and europe. The same people who complain that prices are high here don't see the irony in defending our wage levels.

I wouldn't go as far as calling us poxy, but hey someone has to balance the arguement away from those who believe we are some kind of special place where wage and social welfare structures completely out of kilter with our nearest neighbours is a sustainable situation. It is make believe.

And far from being the "caring" left, the champions of this nonsense will leave the next generation bankrupt whilst excluding any hope of the unemployed ever getting back on their feet. It's not socialism, it's protectionism of the haves, as purple has said.

PS: I still await an explanation from someone as to why going back to the real level of welfare payments from 5 years ago cannot be done. We didn't have widespread starvation in 2005. We obviously can't set social welfare to a level capable of paying mortgages taken out at the height of the boom, but every other element of the increases in the cost of living since then are not irreversable
 
so is your plan to start with those on social welfare and the minimum wage,how about starting at the other end of the field!??
 
According to the latest figures produced by Eurostat , the EC statistical office , Ireland has the 6th highest minimum wage in Europe when adjusted for purchasing power.

The UK are in fifth place.
 
Deiseblue said:
According to the latest figures produced by Eurostat , the EC statistical office , Ireland has the 6th highest minimum wage in Europe when adjusted for purchasing power.

The UK are in fifth place.
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See the correlation? 25% higher minimum wage, 25% higher cost of living.
 
DerKaiser said:
See the correlation? 25% higher minimum wage, 25% higher cost of living.
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Oh I see the correlation alright , the cost of living is such that the minimum wage is currently set at the right level.

It is hugely debatable as to whether a decrease in the minimum wage would reduce our living costs appreciably.
 
Social welfare < Minimum wage < skilled and educated workers < newly qualified worker < experienced workers.
This is a legitimate hierarchy!!

If a welfare family gets €40k you know something is wrong. Start with the obvious anomaly. If you try to cut a min wage worker's wage first they will quit and go on the dole. If you try to cut an experienced worker's wage, he may emigrate or choose to work fewer hours. If you cut social welfare, what will happen? Will people suddenly stop claiming welfare out of principle? Nope. They'll crowd out min wage jobs which would allow a cut to min wage. Min wage workers may upskill, at some people will recognise they may be better off starting their own businesses.
 

I think a cut in some social welfare payments, more rigorous means testing for social housing particularly for lone parents is plausible economically and politically. If govt was to implement social welfare cuts, those impacted are the least likely to vote so the govt may not actually suffer all that much. Apart from the intellectual left types I think most people would be in favour.
I'm hesitant to endorse a cut in the minimum wage especially without a cut in social welfare payments. If low wages alone was the answer to recovery and prosperity, countries like Somalia would be an economic super power.
 
i would think that someone on welfare who would have to suffer a pay cut might well make it their business to vote this time...i know i definitly would!
 
The hourly rate on the dole is around €5.50 an hour. That’s around the same as the minimum wage in much of the EU and is higher than the Federal minimum wage in the USA. I have heard people say that if we abolish the minimum wage people will we working for €2.50 an hour. I know it’s hard to believe but they said it with a straight face!
Let’s be clear, nobody will work for less than they will get on the dole. Therefore the social welfare system creates a wage floor in the labour market. I have no problem with a minimum wage but I do think ours is way too high in that the starting point on the wage cost graph is too high.

Please don’t anyone pretend that there are droves of people out there supporting families on the minimum wage. Less than 3.5% of the workforce is on the minimum wage and nearly all of them are young, starting off and living with their Mammy.

I can only speak about the employment areas I know but engineers in Ireland get paid about twice as much as their counterparts in Wales. Skilled machinists in Wales get £5-£12 an hour. In Ireland they get €18-€40 an hour. Their counterparts in Germany get considerably less than that and since there is such a shortage of them there has been no drop in wages over the last two years.
 
starlite68 said:
i would think that someone on welfare who would have to suffer a pay cut might well make it their business to vote this time...i know i definitly would!
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I said earlier that I feel everyone is entitled to a social safety net/ambulance and I do. The difference is such mechanisms are temporary until you get back up to supporting yourself. But to have someone talk about "pay cut" in social welfare, like they've somehow earned it, c'mon!

This whole mess isn't too difficult, we're only a country of 4 million, it's no different to running a big city, just a bit more spread out.

In my opinion, nothing is untouchable if it prevents this country going bust and provides a future. We must consider all areas of goverment spending.

Funny too that a cut in SW would bring out the voters, when we had all those years of Bertie throwing money out through SW in order to buy votes. Fickle bunch by the sounds of it, in fact sounds like their vote is for sale rather than based upon anything else.
 

More SF candidates in the next election so me thinks
 
The hourly rate on the dole is around €5.50 an hour.
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In reality its a lot higher. Factor in rent allowance, medical cards, allowances for dependants etc.
 
starlite68 said:
i would think that someone on welfare who would have to suffer a pay cut might well make it their business to vote this time...i know i definitly would!
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I dont agree. The majority of the non-working class arent even registered to vote. Analysis of elections in most western countries shows time and time again, no matter what the government does and no matter what the economic conditions are, welfare recipients just dont vote in large numbers.
 
OTher european immigrants here who don`t qualify for irish welfare, would work for the minimum wage here even if it was 3 euros an hour.Thus if the minimum wage is to be cut,welfare has to be cut, otherwise all the irish minimum wage workers would just go on welfare.
We need leadership on getting our wage and salary and welfare levels down. I suggest an across the board reduction on all public servants and also on welfare and the minimum wage.The generous packages and protected positions of our high paid public servants need to tackled first.
 

Why not everyone? Middle class and high earners earn more than than in other European Countries. I earn more than someone doing the same job in most European Countries apart from the UK. Why is increasing competitivness limited to social welfare, minimum wage earners and public sector workers?
 

+1
 
Sunny said:
Why is increasing competitivness limited to social welfare, minimum wage earners and public sector workers?
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It shouldn't be.

And this is what kills me about the whole private vs public debate.....

The minimum wage, public sector pay & social welfare are all decided on by government and so to change them government action is needed.

Private sector wages are market driven. Brian Cowen can't walk in to Tesco and order them to cut the pay of middle and senior management.

I believe Tesco should pay it's employees less and cut grocery prices, I believe Deloitte should cut the wages of its accountants and I believe that public sector pay needed to come down from where it was a couple of years ago.

I can shop around for accountants or groceries and that will drive competition. There is no competition for providing the majority of public services, so my desire for better value doesn't come from taking my business elsewhere but from putting pressure on elected representatives to provide cheaper public services.

So next time I reckon public service pay needs to be cut, don't feel singled out. I've probably switched from Tesco to Lidl and start using Ryanair rather than aer lingus i.e. voting with my hard cash that I believe Tesco and Aer Lingus pay too much to their employees!
 

Presumably you've run this past your employer as well and urged him to cut your wages in the interest of producing a cheaper product for the market ?
 
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