David Walsh,Paul Kimmage & The Devil they "know&quo

David Walsh,Paul Kimmage & The Devil they "know&quo

The Sunday Times ran an article regarding the imminent release of David Walsh's new book, an expose on Lance Armstrong and drugs in cycling, particularly his involvement through the years.

As a former cyclist, we were all aware of drugs in our sport, none more so than at the highest level.

I dont think I'm on my own when I say that everyone who has an interest in sport of any kind will agree that at the highest level ,professional sportspersons are all at it. With the financial benefits, it would seem mad not to be using the same "technology" as your fellow competitor. Of course there are sports which are clean to a degree maybe only here on a domestic level now though.

With this in mind, maybe David Walsh & Paul Kimmage should just leave it alone and get on to some new project. I for one am sick of hearing about drugs in sport. Let them at the top at it. Sport is tarnished enough already, its almost a joke regargless and respect for athletes has diminished.Top sporting events such as the Olympics, Tour De France & even Superbowl are entertainment only now. Who cares what they're on.

Re: David Walsh,Paul Kimmage & The Devil they "know

Who cares what they're on.

Presumably, amongst others, those competitors who train really damn hard and try to win on their own merit, while Speedy Mc Steroid whizzes past!!

Who cares

my point is , do we the joe soaps care anymore. all we're interested in is entertainment. David Walsh's sensationalism is lost on a public that has no real faith in sport as being clean anymore.

he's not helping and he's frankly getting really boring.

Even Paul Kimmage, who I really like as a journalist, really has a gripe and cant let it go.

Who actually believes that the 100m Mens Sprint is a clean event. Who believes that in the third week of the Tour De France when the riders are going over Alpe De Huez, that the cyclists are riding out of pure strength and fitness.

Who's clean these days?

Re: Who cares

I don't know about cycling, but after every major 100m sprint race the winners get drug tested don't they?

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I've read an argument thats says to just let everyone in pro sport take whatever drugs they want so at least everyone would again be on a level playing pitch....
When you see the former East German female athletes who have to literally shave their faces regularly due to the enourmouse amounts of testosterone I wonder if thats such a good idea for health!!!

drug tests

irrelevant.

cycling is the most widely tested sport for drugs, even at an amateur level.

the drugs industry are a step ahead of the authorities the whole time. In cycling, EPO abuse is widespread but only stays in your system for a short time. Furthermore its naturally produced in your system, making it almost impossible to catch cheats.

running and athletics are no different, just different or the same drugs, masked by other drugs which are undetectable and above all else not illegal or banned.

thats beside the point though. Walsh is right so is Kimmage. No doubting what they say is accurate. But their reporting is becoming tedious to those who know about sport. we've all accepted that our icons on the world stage are enhancing themselves artificially. world records mean nothing anymore, but it makes good tv watching.

i must be on my own on this point though!

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I think it's in the sports long-term interest to clean things up but I accept that the short-term interests usually carry more weight.

Personally, I've lost all interest in athletics, swimming and cycling as spectator sports since the widespread use of performance enhancing drugs became known. frankly, I feel duped. The incredible feats of strength, stamina and endurance which I put down to the heroic efforts of the sportspeople involved were in fact drug-fuelled and therfore phoney.

Of course, the betrayal of my faith matters not a whit. I can just turn off.

But children are a different matter. They take their lead from the so-called heroes and try to emulate their achievements. As parents, what are we to tell them? "Well actually, you haven't a hope unless you fill yourself with drugs which we'd rather you didn't do."

You could also argue that it wouldn't matter if the drugs weren't doing any harm. Alas with Flo jo and many other lesser known sportspeople, the negative effects of these drugs has become tragically apparent.

If sport is to have a future, therefore, it needs to cleaned up.

Re: drug tests

I doubt you're on your own gongey. I don't read their columns so I can't say I feel your frustration.

I wouldn't be the biggest cycling or athletic fanatic (in terms of watching anyway) so I can't say I have much of an opinion on how I feel about it. I don't think it's right but I recognise that it's probably rampant alright.

David Walsh,Paul Kimmage & The Devil they "know&amp

I became completely cynical about most individual sports such as cycling (I know that there's a team aspect but it's largely an individual sport), track & field, swimming, gymnastics etc. and wouldn't really bother getting excited about it or watch the big events (Olympics, world championships etc.) any more. Team field sports (soccer, rugby, GAA (even if it's not particularly my bag) etc.) at least still have some semblance of fairness and of (pardon the pun) involving a level playing pitch. That's not to say that drugs are not used in this context too but unlike other sports any individual gain is arguably mitigated by other factors.

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i think that the sports mentioned portray themselves as being the pinnacle of athletic endeavour and are hyped up as such. In those circumstances journalists have every right to pursue these stories.

Re: ..

So if you're not interested in the topic Gongey, don't buy the book/newspaper - simple eh?

interested

the simple fact is that my interest in the topic has been ongoing for the last 8/9 years. it was sensational news back when Kimmage wrote his book about drugs in the tour. It was sensational when Ben Johnson was caught in the Olympics, sensational when the Festina scandal hit. For ten years there have been headlines about drugs in sport. We the public are aware of the fact that they are prevalent. What David Walsh seems to be aiming is a newer version of a similiar story he tried on Stephen Roche. Try the popular guy, forget about the ordinary Joe Soap whjo for example in cycling is a domestique but who needs drugs just to compete to the level that is now required in modern day sport at a professional level.

Walsh is a very good journalist, I like a lot of his work. My point has been that this book is beating a dead donkey. Its just another top sportsperson to get at. Its boring.

Rainyday your terse reply is unnecessary. i've opened a forum for AAM visitors. Have you anything worthwhile to say on the matter yourself?

Re: interested

I don't understand why you seem to want to stifle debate on this topic. If you're not interested in the topic, just ignore it. If you find politics/religion/tiddlywinks boring, does that mean that others shouldn't write about it?

stifling?

who's stifling? i opened the topic. i'm very interested to read what people think and view. what's your view though? where's your debate?

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I agree that the subject has lost some of its shock value but I thinks it's still a newsworthy item and one that deserves to kept high on the agenda of sportswriters and other interested parties.

Top level performance shouldn't be the preserve of those who use performance enhancing drugs. The day they can do so without impunity or any sort of critical analysis will be a very sad day indeed.

Re: ..

David Walsh's sensationalism...

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Its hardly credible to accuse Walsh of sensationalism. Walsh was writing about drug use in top-level sport years ago when others were denying that there was any problem. Much of what Walsh wrote has been proven true by later events

he's not helping...

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Do you think the problem will disappear if we brush it under the carpet again?

...and he's frankly getting really boring.

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That is a matter of opinion. If a writer bores you, stop reading him.

with due respect

tommy, refer to my previous posts where i've stated that i like a lot of David Walsh & Paul Kimmage articles across a broad expanse of sport. I didn't state I found him boring, I said the subject matter has been flogged.

yes David Walsh has been writing for a long time about the issue of drugs in sports. very commedable and generally well intentioned. it was informative and made good reading. I dont deny this.

However he seems to make it his mission to crusade against the top athletes, in cycling thats Lance Armstrong. Like it or not, the new book is trying to sensationalise an already over-written-about topic i.e. Lance Armstrong and drugs.

Earlier posts of mine asked, do we care anymore, when we all know that most are on performance enhancing drugs. Does it take from our entertainment, do we still regard them as heroes, even if they're pepped up to the eyes on goofballs.

Regardless of the attention Walsh brings to the sport or the individual, when Lance Armstrong retires, there will be another person who will be top of his/her game and riddled with drugs. Just another person to aim at for Walsh. But you can bet it wont be a lowly team member that appears in a book or on the Sunday Times. And so the cycle (pardon the pun) will continue. Can you see how this has become boring for me personally as someone who has followed cycling, sport and Walsh for around ten years. Is it good journalism or just repetitiveness on Walsh's front. Maybe i'm wrong, but do we care anymore who's doing it or not. We all presume they are, so just let them off and as someone earlier said, level the playing field.

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gongey said:

"we've all accepted that our icons on the world stage are enhancing themselves artificially."

You're not speaking for me there I'm afraid. Replace the word 'accepted' with 'acknowledged' and you'll be closer the mark I feel. While any reasonable person acknowledges that theres a huge percentage of drug cheats out there (see excellent prime time special a few weeks back...there is NO efficient test for human growth hormone, and genetic doping may already be upon us), this does not mean that we accept it.

I am no longer an avid fan of cycling and athletics as where once I marvelled in the heroic feats of top human athletes, now it is all meaningless. It is not entertaining to me to know I am watching a cheat so I no longer watch.

When you use the argument 'so what if they do it.. let them all do it' you overlook the genuine heroes out there who are working themselves to the bone in the pursuit of sporting perfection and choosing not to abuse their bodies by taking drugs...only to be beaten by cheats.

Also, as Tom Humphries, who for me is the best sports writer of them all (though Walsh and Kimmage are exceptional), points out, the message sent to kids if we were to accept this by no longer protesting about drug abuse, is unhealthy and so we should aim to erdicate drug abuse to give the next generation of kids a positive belief that they can achieve without drugs.

Question- who finished fourth in the 1988 100m Seoul Olympics sprint? that guy was the real winner as he is the only one in the top 4 not to have since been uncovered as a druggie

Drugs

Maybe we should just accept that we'll never know that a sport is clean, all we can know is that the athletes we test weren't taking the drugs we can test for.

The saddest part is that Athletes who may well have been clean are also supect. I can still remember the weeks infront of the TV in 1987 watching Stephen Roche winning the Giro, the Tour and The World Championship.

In 1998 when the Tour imploded in drugs scandals I looked back at 1987 and wondered what were the chances of someone coming from "almost nowhere" and achieving something that hadn't been done since Eddy Merx.

-Rd

Drugs in Sport

Firstly, I have to point out that I myself am a cyclist so will naturally be slightly biased, though I try to stay neutral in this respect.
There is no doubting the major impact scandals such as the Festina affair have had on the perception of cycling and I also have no doubt that many cyclists are still using, and being caught, doping. However that does not mean that everyone is doing it.
Across cycling there are different grades, based on talent, each at different pay/benefits levels, as in other sports, with the lesser talents merely being fodder for the team managers etc. Some guys have the genuine talent to become stars and others don't. Like in every other walk of life, many people faced with the prospect of failure and a quick return to "factory" work, grasp any chance they can to propel themselves into the upper echelons of the sport. By winning just one top quality race their career can be transformed from journey man to idol and all the riches/fame that entails.
This is the basis for the use of drugs in a sport which is regarded, whether drugs are being used or not as one of the toughest in the world.
However, cycling has tried, with varying degrees of determination, to confront this problem and this has caused the continued degrading of the sport through the constant press stories. I believe that although it is hard at the moment this will mean that cycling should have a better future.
What troubles me is that other sports do not take the same stance and try to pretend that doping is not a problem in their sport. Clearly athletics is awash with doping, and NFL and Baseball appear to be as well. I cannot remember a positive drug test in soccer, apart from recreational drugs. Are we to believe, with all the money in football, that not one player has asked for, and received, a pick-me-up in a major championship.
I think that David Walsh's book, from what I have read, is taking a shot at an easy target, and still comes up with no hard evidence. Lance is probably the most tested athlete in the world, and even had blood taken a few years back retested based on newly discovered tests with still no positives. However, due to his amazing results and the sport he competes in he will never prove a negative.