Dartmouth Square

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He's a carpet-bagger. A quick buck merchant. A blood sucker. A cute hoor. A stroke puller, trained in the O'Leary school of stroke pullers.
Take your pick.
They all apply.
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I'm still at a loss to figure out what specifically this guy did that was illegal, or even wrong. He saw a bit of land that the council were too stupid to buy. He realised that if he bought it, the council would eventually realise their stupidity and try to buy it back, probably under a CPO, and probably netting him a profit. He also figured that it being government the profit could be quite big.

How is that different from anyone who buys a piece of land, or any asset that they feel will become more valuable to someone else in the future? He staked his cash on someone being willing to pay more than he did.

I think there might be questions about how he got this land so cheap. I can't figure out how that happened. But in principle I can't figure out why people feel buying an asset in the hopes that it will appreciate is a bad thing.

You may not like this guy, or what he does, or how much money he can make doing it, but are you willing to give up your right to invest, just so you can curtail his?

If you buy a big stake in an airline from the government, would you be forced to sell it back to the government at the issue price, rather than the market price, just because the government realise they made a mistake?
Would that kind of economic environment make you happy?
How long do you think money would stay in the country?

The government is the most powerful and wealthiest player in the economy. They get to make the rules for how everyone else invests and operates. And you want us to have sympathy when an individual investor profits from the states stupidity?

-Rd
 
Well said DaltonR. The undercurrent of the protestors on this thread is that of envy or jealousy towards O'Gara because he got the land for the price he got it and now stands to make a massive profit.

Is anyone here trying to say that if they had the chance to buy that land at that price that they would turn it down?????

Hmmmmmmmmmm, didn't think so.

Rd is right, it's the council to blame and people should be venting their fury at their ongoing incompetance rather than O'Gara.
 
daltonr said:
I'm still at a loss to figure out what specifically this guy did that was illegal, or even wrong.
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Well there you have it in a nutshell Daltonr.

Being a rabid Capitalist (with a capital C) you look at everything simply in terms of money. Thats all that matters, right?

Whats LEGAL and whats RIGHT are the very same thing to you - words such as MORALITY and ETHICS are so alien to you it would require someone to explain the concepts before you can actually get it.

I don't want to turn this into a personal bunfight - because you are far from being the only guilty party here - in fact, reading these forums often makes my blood run cold at the sheer greed and monumental arrogance and stupidity of many of the postings. I really fear for this society, which seems to be dismantling day by day.

Our environment is being ruined by people like you (plural).
Vast swathes of the Amazon forest being wiped out for short term profit by a few greedy men - but hey, it's LEGAL.
The Borneo forests being stripped and burned for profit - but hey, it's LEGAL.
Natural resources worldwide being raped and over exploited, species being driven to extinction, human beings reduced to empty collateral by greedy profiteers and warmongers.

And its ALL LEGAL.
So thats OK, says Daltonr.

Only it's not - because it ain't RIGHT.
It ain't MORAL.
And it ain't ETHICAL.

Mr.O'Gara is an exploiter - on a small scale perhaps - but that is what he is nonetheless. One of the multitudinous benighted greedy little men who will collectively pillage the whole planet for personal gain, until there's nothing left for our children.
Thank God for the good Judge who put a halt on him.

Mr.O'Gara is welcome to his profit - but we will pay for it, and we pay because he is holding us ALL to ransom. Blackmailing us over the fate of another little sliver of our natural environment (and yes, stupidity of the CoCo allowed it).

I don't use Dartmouth Sq. I couldn't find it on a map. But it is important to me that it is THERE.
I may never visit the Amazon - or Borneo's rainforests - but it MATTERS that they are there.

Now do you get it?
 
Is anyone here trying to say that if they had the chance to buy that land at that price that they would turn it down?????
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Well we know YOU would't think twice about doing an O'Gara.

Personally, for 8K I'd buy it, and leave it to my kids - with instructions to keep it open to the public (that includes you lmd) with a perpetual ban on development of any kind.

Thats all the payback I need. I swear that on my mothers grave - I'd be happy as a pig in s**t if I could do it.

If I was looking for any reward I'd like to have it named after me, and maybe a statue put up (- just kidding).

But this kind of thinking is probably just too far off the wall for you to even grasp in your wildest dreams. I don't expect you to believe such an alien concept as philanthropy before profit.
 

You don't mean you'd pave Herbert Park do you? That's the only public green space I can think of in the Ballsbridge/Donnybrook area, apart from the banks of the Dodder. Parks and green spaces are very important in a city, not only because they are a public amenity, i.e. we can take our kids there and surround ourselves with something other than buildings for a while, but the green areas are the lungs of any city. Others we might all end up breathing the quality of air to be found in Beijing.
 
Meccano,

I think you've got this completely the wrong way around.

First of all you know very little about me, so relax with the "rabid Capitalist (with a capital C)" nonsense.

Just because I believe someone should be entitled to invest and see a reward for their investment, doesn't mean that I believe there aren't moral and ethical issues involved. I'm just at a loss to see what they might be in this situation.

Ireland is one of the smallest countries in Europe and yet we have the single biggest city park in Europe right here in Dublin, one of the biggest in the world in fact. In addition to that we have dozens and dozens of smaller parks. If there's one thing Dublin is not missing it's green space.

So, let's not draw parallels between Dartmouth Square and Amazon Rainforests. When you do that you just draw attention to the differences, not the similarities.

Our environment is being ruined by people like you (plural).
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What are people like me? Are you refering to the fact that I own a business? Or is it just that I don't go along with the Soppy Politically correct response when someone wants to chop down a tree? I'll admit I'm skeptical about certain environmental issues, such as recycling. And until someone actually convinces me of the value (monetary or envionmental) I'll remain skeptical. But I resent the suggestion that I (or people like me) are destroying the planet, when in truth, you haven't a clue what I or people like me are actually like, or what we do.

You extrapolated from the fact that I don't care about a small rectangle of green in Dublin, that I don't care about the environment at all. And well, I'm afraid that's not a good thing to do.

One thing I do care about is people who will waste their energy arguing about a piece of grass in Dublin, as if it is the battle front in a fight to save the planet, but they won't look at the real causes of Global Environmental Damage. (Clue... It's not all being caused by big corporations in the name of money).

Quite a lot of the "good things to do" that the politically correct brigade advocate, won't do a damn thing in the short medium or long term to protect this planet. But sure you'll all feel good, and get to look down your noses at everyone else, and isn't that really what it's all about?

Let's consider for a minute your environmental plan. You and people like you will fight tooth and nail to protect every postage stamp sized bit of grass in the city centre. OK, that's your right. But as a result Dublin has lots and lots of parks, and virtually no High Density accomodation.

So people have to move to the outskirts. To huge estates sprawled accross the country side, sprawled accross the Dublin Mountains, swallowing rurals towns. Taking up tens of thousands of acres when a much smaller but taller footprint would have done the same thing. These estates have little or no public transport, so these people drive to work. And you and your like chastise them for that. After YOU drove them out of the cities.
Darthmouth Square could accomodate an awful lot of people, with public transport on their doorstep. Instead these people will commute for hours each day in their cars, so Dublin can have yet another park, for a handful of locals to enjoy.
Hurrah! for the environmentalists. Another victory.

You can complain all you want about my attitude to the environment, but don't think for one second that your misguided views are doing any better.
At least my attidute to the environment has been given a modicum of thought.

Whats LEGAL and whats RIGHT are the very same thing to you - words such as MORALITY and ETHICS are so alien to you it would require someone to explain the concepts before you can actually get it.
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Now you're just being mean.
In fact if you READ my post I specifically I said

> I'm still at a loss to figure out what specifically this guy did that was
> illegal, or even wrong.

So you see, I do know that some things are legal, but still wrong.

For example, it is perfectly legal for you to call me a rabid Capitalist with no morals or ethics, and no regards whatsoever for the environment.

But it would be wrong...both Factually, and in terms of just being a decent person.

I'm not going to send you check stubs to prove whether or not I engage in any philanthropy. It's none of your damned business if I do or not.
But I'm not going to stand for you telling the world that I engage in none, just because you don't like my views on a piece of grass, or you don't like people who own businesses. BTW, my business doesn't do any more or less environmental damage than you do on a given day.

BTW, I'm sure your kids will love the Annual Public Liability Insurance Bill you leave them.
They'll turn the park into a very tall apartment building within a year of burying you, if they have any sense,
especially if they inherit your love of the environment, and someone elses common sense.

-Rd
 


No, I wouldn't think twice about capitalising on the idiotic county counci's mistake, and you're right Meccano, I DON'T believe you wouldn't either!
 
Can people stop using capital letters everytime they wish to emphasise something..it's VERY annoying
Firefly.
 
Meccano,
You have to be most patronising poster ive come accross in ages. You attach all the blame to guy who has taken advantage of a cock up by the council but dont seem to place any blame on them. I think O Gara is a chancer but is that a bad thing?
 
daltonr said:
You and people like you will fight tooth and nail to protect every postage stamp sized bit of grass in the city centre. OK, that's your right. But as a result Dublin has lots and lots of parks, and virtually no High Density accomodation.
-Rd
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This does not follow.
One can have very high density and lots of parks - in fact high density would allow (and if properly designed) require lots of parks.
 
daltonr said:
I think there might be questions about how he got this land so cheap. I can't figure out how that happened.
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I read that the owner was so pissed off by the intransigence of the council he decided to sell it for a nominal fee (to whoever he thought would make the most mischief). That of course may not be true.
Bear in mind this same council is (jointly) behind 'the worst case scenario of urban sprawl in europe' according to the European Environmental Agency (bloody tree huggers anyway).
 
I'm definitely getting the sense of the mentality. I picture the lot of ya slavering over the keyboard at the very thought of every piece of green space in urban Dublin being your own personal multi storey development - I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some of you already doing research into how you can replicate O'Gara's little stunt.

Don't give me that guff about the poor poor commuters who have to move to Mullingar all because we preserve a few parks. Complete b***ox. If anything was built there - D6 - would the primary school teachers and nurses be the ones buying into them? My ass they would. It'd be the already wealthy upper middle classes snapping them up - and the little commuters can go to hell - or Mullingar.

And speaking of commuting - we know what current traffic levels in Dublin are like in peak times - but lets factor in a few dozen massive high rises in the centre of the city and imagine what happens. Total gridlock.

You talk about Dublins parks as if they're a bad thing - 'so much green space - bad'. Well its those parks and green spaces, and the low-rise nature of the city which makes Dublin unique as a human-sized capital.
To use your own oft-repeated logic, if you don't like living in green Dublin, why don't you move to Bombay.
 
This does not follow.
One can have very high density and lots of parks - in fact high density would allow (and if properly designed) require lots of parks.
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Yes, but instead of protecting every square inch of grass, we'd keep only enough grass to service the needs of the accomodation we build on it.

Does anyone think that If Mr O'Gara wanted to build a highrise appartment block on part of Dartmouth Square, keeping the rest of it for the use of the appartment owners, that the outcry would have been any less, or that the council would have allowed it to happen?

As it happens it may well be that Dartmouth Square is the ideal size park for the existing surrounding inhabitants, or it may be better to develop part of it. I don't know.

What I do know is that in their stupididty, the council decided not to bother thinking about that. And they let it fall into the hands of a developer. That's the real problem here.

Meccano, I don't 'play post ping pong' any more. You've had your rant and I've had mine. Others can make up their own minds. For what it's worth, Bombay isn't the only choice for those wanting to leave Dublin. And the "If you don't like it get out" mantra isn't mine, but I hear it pleanty from people who don't like to discuss the flaws in their city.

-Rd
 
Meccano-stop so much-in this thread and in others.

And note our around profanities etc.
 
Meccano said:
And speaking of commuting - we know what current traffic levels in Dublin are like in peak times - but lets factor in a few dozen massive high rises in the centre of the city and imagine what happens. Total gridlock.
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But if people lived in the city centre, where public transport is better, and they're closer to their work, wouldn't they be able to get to work without their cars?
 

Please respect the posting guidelines, ie "Attack an opinion by all means, but please don't attack the person expressing the opinion."

Meccano said:
Well its those parks and green spaces, and the low-rise nature of the city which makes Dublin unique as a human-sized capital.
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... so much so that the city that now stretches to Kells, Mullingar, Carlow and Gorey
 
daltonR, I think that Meccano has too many preconceptions about “people like you” to actually listen to the substance of what you are saying. Drawing parallels between a square in Dublin and deforestation in Borneo and the Amazon requires too many leaps to be credible. Applying simplistic causes to such complex issues further undermines the comparison.
Meccano said:
Errr...because land is cheaper?
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So other countries/ cities maximise the return from their land because it’s cheaper… I don’t see the logic of that one.
Meccano said:
And speaking of commuting - we know what current traffic levels in Dublin are like in peak times - but lets factor in a few dozen massive high rises in the centre of the city and imagine what happens. Total gridlock.
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High-density housing makes public transport infrastructure like a metro viable. Low-density housing makes it unviable.
 
I agree that there are two types of people in the world - those who will rape everything in sight for personal enrichment whenever they are presented with the opportunity, and those who have a profound ethical and moral objection to such behaviour.

I hear the substance of what you are saying all right - and it's get rich quick by any means necessary.

The parralels between Borneo/The Amazon and green spaces in Dublin are exactly the same - its simply a matter of scale. Little greedy men getting rich off the backs of the environment - which is destroyed for future generations.
And the usual crummy excuses trotted out to plaster over their villainry and to dupe the foolish into believing they're being done 'a service' through it...like the housing red-herring.
CCOVICH said:
Meccano-stop so much-in this thread and in others.

And note our around profanities etc.
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Right, point taken. I'll just use bold instead.
 
I envy you your simple world-view Meccano. For those of us who live in the real world things just aren't that black and white. How can you draw a parallel between a developer taking advantage of an incompetent county council and deforestation by subsistence farmers in poor equatorial countries? I say this because I’m sure you know that the root causes of this have more to do with lack of geo-political cohesion (which can be traced back to colonial political constructs and 15th century exploration), the increase in population in tropical Africa and Asia in the 15th to 17th century as a result of the introduction of South American root and cereal crops, the legacy of cold war client-ism, local corruption, reduction in infant mortality rates, increases in life expectancy, the collapse of commodity prices after the 1970’s oil crises and political corruption that allows corporate profiteering. Oh no, sorry; it’s just the last one…
 
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