Interest only buy to let - 2 missed payments @ 650 each last Christmas but we missed no further payments. Only contact from bank was 2 phone calls suggesting selling the property and some reminder letters. No request for an SFS that I can recall. I wanted to set up a dd and pay it off but they wouldnt agree - just wanted the €650's. I did state I would try to pay the arrears but just couldn't get the money together. 6 months later they close all my accounts and remove overdraft. The bank tell me a legal process has started and cannot be stopped. The T&C'S in the mortgage does state they can take necessary action if arrears exist for 3 months or more. I pay the arrears out of our savings which makes no odds. Rent receiver then appointed without notifying me who wrote directly to tenants. Rent receiver instructed to sell house. A few weeks later we get 10 day demand for full amount €200k. I pass on to solicitor who fails to reply and then we get high court summons (my solicitor claims this was coming anyway). The bank's solicitors did not know a rent receiver was appointed and that we are agreeing to a voluntary sale. We are now putting together an SFS and proposal hoping to put the bank off pursuing the high court order. We thought that a negotiation process would take place after the house sale when we knew what the shortfall would be (expected to be 70k). I am taking legal and financial advice but we are totally in shock and very upset at the speed and severity of Danske. We are not looking for sympathy. We took a punt that didnt go to plan but the bank did give us interest only indefinitely. Do we just roll over and let the bank get the order or do we contest ? I am tempted to represent myself at the high court if necesary - is that mad ? Anyone else out there suffering at the hands of Danske ?
Danske appoints rent receiver over 2 months' arrears and now is seeking possession
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Brendan Burgess
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I suggest that you fill in the following:
Standard Format for mortgage arrears Case Studies
There are some very strange bits here
Have you now paid off all the arrears? If so, it's unlikely that the High Court would give them an order for repossession, unless this is the final straw for them where this account has been out of order for some time.
Do they need to go to the High Court. As it's an investment property mortgage which gives them the power to appoint a Rent Receiver, I wonder can they appoint a Fixed Asset Receiver.
I assume you own a separate property i.e. your home? If so, you are not covered by the Mortgage Arrears Code. If you don't own a home, you are covered by the MAC and Danske would be way out of order.
However, you are still covered by the Consumer Protection Code which you should read immediately.
You would be mad to represent yourself in the High Court. As it is, you have handled this very badly to date. You need a good solicitor.
Standard Format for mortgage arrears Case Studies
There are some very strange bits here
Why did you wait until you got a High Court summons to pay arrears which you were well able to pay?
If this is how it happened, then sounds as if you need a new solicitor.
They are probably in shock that you were withholding payments, when they knew you had the money.
Have you now paid off all the arrears? If so, it's unlikely that the High Court would give them an order for repossession, unless this is the final straw for them where this account has been out of order for some time.
Do they need to go to the High Court. As it's an investment property mortgage which gives them the power to appoint a Rent Receiver, I wonder can they appoint a Fixed Asset Receiver.
I assume you own a separate property i.e. your home? If so, you are not covered by the Mortgage Arrears Code. If you don't own a home, you are covered by the MAC and Danske would be way out of order.
However, you are still covered by the Consumer Protection Code which you should read immediately.
You would be mad to represent yourself in the High Court. As it is, you have handled this very badly to date. You need a good solicitor.
Danske are very difficult to deal with from any arrears customers point of view, they are very challenging straight shooters not shying away from appointing rent receivers. When other arrears sections are lost in administration and follow up Danske are attacking their arrears book with determination. That does not make them bad bankers, quite the opposite actually but challenging to deal with, you must know your legal position and start from there, at this stage you need a solicitor.
In relation to the timing of paying the arrears, we did this when the bank wrote to us closing all accounts etc I thought it was a threat but obviously not. The demand and summons didn't arrive until some time later. I guess we were trying to avoid delving into our relatively small amount of savings. All arrears were paid off at that time (€1300). I am still very tempted to go into the high court myself, all I have to do is state the facts. I don't particularly want a judgement against us for 200k.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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Hi
If your arrears are clear, I think it's very unlikely that they will get a judgment and an order for repossession.
But, it's too risky. You need a good solicitor to argue your case. Not the guy you are currently using. I would imagine that a good solicitor would probably write to Danske telling them to withdraw the case or face her bill for costs.
Brendan
If your arrears are clear, I think it's very unlikely that they will get a judgment and an order for repossession.
But, it's too risky. You need a good solicitor to argue your case. Not the guy you are currently using. I would imagine that a good solicitor would probably write to Danske telling them to withdraw the case or face her bill for costs.
Brendan
Thanks Brendan
The order is for the full amount of 200k as opposed to re-possession or is there a difference ? We are co-operating with the rent receiver regarding a sale and property is already on market. This legal process is happening in parallel to, but seemingly separate the receiver's actions. Why go for an order now as opposed to waiting for sale when we all would know the short fall ? Thanks again.
The order is for the full amount of 200k as opposed to re-possession or is there a difference ? We are co-operating with the rent receiver regarding a sale and property is already on market. This legal process is happening in parallel to, but seemingly separate the receiver's actions. Why go for an order now as opposed to waiting for sale when we all would know the short fall ? Thanks again.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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- 53,718
You absolutely need full legal advice on this.
If you are not in arrears, there should not be a rent receiver in place.
If you have a low cost interest only tracker from Danske, I don't think you should be selling the property. It's probably profitable and you can avoid realising the negative equity.
Brendan
If you are not in arrears, there should not be a rent receiver in place.
If you have a low cost interest only tracker from Danske, I don't think you should be selling the property. It's probably profitable and you can avoid realising the negative equity.
Brendan
As Brendan says, you really need to get good legal advice here. You also should put up all the information in a much clearer way than you have done-it so hard to follow.
Can you confirm that although you said you paid off all the arrears (€1300 at that time), that you are now back in arrears again?
And if so, how much arrears are you in (€150 per month shortfal x how many months)?
And are you supposed to be on interest plus capital and only paying interest?
Can you confirm that although you said you paid off all the arrears (€1300 at that time), that you are now back in arrears again?
And if so, how much arrears are you in (€150 per month shortfal x how many months)?
And are you supposed to be on interest plus capital and only paying interest?
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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You really should not be going to court on your own if you don't understand the paperwork.
I don't understand it either so I would be using a solicitor.
Brendan
Apologies if I haven't stated this clearly.
In chronological order:
1. We miss 2 payments but then continue with repayments for 6 months +
2. Telephone calls and standard letters from bank re arrears - we say we will try to pay back.No mention of discussion or request for SFS. The bank verbally suggest to sell which we decline.
3. We don't get money together to repay arrears.
4. After arrears in place for over 6 months (total €1300), bank terminate our accounts and issue demand for full amount (as per t&c). Bank will not talk saying our file has been passed to their legal people.
5. Our tenants get notified to say rent receiver in place. We hear nothing from bank. When contacted we get told file is with legal people.
6. At that stage we pay arrears (from savings) and request accounts and overdraft reinstated.
7. Auctioneer working on behalf of rent receiver is in contact with tenants with a view to putting on market for sale. We co-operate with the auctioneer and tenants as we accept sale is necessary.
8. No word from bank until we get letter from bank's solictor demanding payment in full within 10 days or make proposal. Our solicitor fails to reply in time which results in summons for high court. We stop paying mortgage at this stage as all accounts closed and rent receiver in place.
9. We have since completed an SFS and a payment proposal and are waiting for a reply. We have nothing else to offer. PPR is slightly in negative equity. Bank's solictor has previously stated that legal procedures will continue but we have asked to hold off.
All of the above happened within 4 months.
There seems to be 2 processes running in parallel but seperate:
(a) Rent receiver / selling the property (voluntary sale)
(b) Legal proceedings for full amount borrowed (200k). The summary summons does not mention re-possession, only the money.
The bank's solicitor is not aware of the rent receiver in place or its actions to date. It appears the bank's instructions are to get an order against us for full amount borrowed. We obviously don't want to end up in the high court but will send legal representation to high court if / when required. We want to put this element off until after the sale when we know the true figures.
In chronological order:
1. We miss 2 payments but then continue with repayments for 6 months +
2. Telephone calls and standard letters from bank re arrears - we say we will try to pay back.No mention of discussion or request for SFS. The bank verbally suggest to sell which we decline.
3. We don't get money together to repay arrears.
4. After arrears in place for over 6 months (total €1300), bank terminate our accounts and issue demand for full amount (as per t&c). Bank will not talk saying our file has been passed to their legal people.
5. Our tenants get notified to say rent receiver in place. We hear nothing from bank. When contacted we get told file is with legal people.
6. At that stage we pay arrears (from savings) and request accounts and overdraft reinstated.
7. Auctioneer working on behalf of rent receiver is in contact with tenants with a view to putting on market for sale. We co-operate with the auctioneer and tenants as we accept sale is necessary.
8. No word from bank until we get letter from bank's solictor demanding payment in full within 10 days or make proposal. Our solicitor fails to reply in time which results in summons for high court. We stop paying mortgage at this stage as all accounts closed and rent receiver in place.
9. We have since completed an SFS and a payment proposal and are waiting for a reply. We have nothing else to offer. PPR is slightly in negative equity. Bank's solictor has previously stated that legal procedures will continue but we have asked to hold off.
All of the above happened within 4 months.
There seems to be 2 processes running in parallel but seperate:
(a) Rent receiver / selling the property (voluntary sale)
(b) Legal proceedings for full amount borrowed (200k). The summary summons does not mention re-possession, only the money.
The bank's solicitor is not aware of the rent receiver in place or its actions to date. It appears the bank's instructions are to get an order against us for full amount borrowed. We obviously don't want to end up in the high court but will send legal representation to high court if / when required. We want to put this element off until after the sale when we know the true figures.
I dont understand the approach you are taking here.....no one can advise you on half stories or snippets. What sort of income do you have?
It was not wise not to pay the arrears when you had the money to pay it. Now you are saying you have accumulated more arrears and have stopped paying. Co-operating with the rent receiver is all well and good but the bank is the only one that can halt this process. You want them to stop the legal process but are not paying them. Would it not be better to establish good will by making a payment?
It was not wise not to pay the arrears when you had the money to pay it. Now you are saying you have accumulated more arrears and have stopped paying. Co-operating with the rent receiver is all well and good but the bank is the only one that can halt this process. You want them to stop the legal process but are not paying them. Would it not be better to establish good will by making a payment?
Why did you not pay the arrears from your savings initially?
Why did you not pay the arrears until point 6 after the bank had issued so many letters and appointed a rent receiver? I'm asking these questions becasue you can be sure that's the reason the bank is being so heavy handed with you. In fact it seems you forced them into doing this to you?
I'm not sure what your grievence is with the bank. Or what you want. Have you signed a document that agrees to the voluntary sale?
You're coming across as being very casual about the banks '2 phone calls' and 'some' letters. How do you know that your solicitor replying within the 10 days would have stopped the summons, you mention he said it was coming anyway and I'd bet he is correct. Nothing happens in 10 days.
I am though amazed at the speed of Danske. 4 months to this stage is some going. They seem hell bent on sorting out their mortgage messes.
There was recently a High court case where there were, now, no arrears, but bank pursued case, and lost, but they got their costs. And High court costs are a VERY serious matter. That is a wake up call, or should be to people who don't deal with their bank and who have the means or assets to pay. It's not generally relevant where one is insolvent.
Why did you not pay the arrears until point 6 after the bank had issued so many letters and appointed a rent receiver? I'm asking these questions becasue you can be sure that's the reason the bank is being so heavy handed with you. In fact it seems you forced them into doing this to you?
I'm not sure what your grievence is with the bank. Or what you want. Have you signed a document that agrees to the voluntary sale?
You're coming across as being very casual about the banks '2 phone calls' and 'some' letters. How do you know that your solicitor replying within the 10 days would have stopped the summons, you mention he said it was coming anyway and I'd bet he is correct. Nothing happens in 10 days.
I am though amazed at the speed of Danske. 4 months to this stage is some going. They seem hell bent on sorting out their mortgage messes.
There was recently a High court case where there were, now, no arrears, but bank pursued case, and lost, but they got their costs. And High court costs are a VERY serious matter. That is a wake up call, or should be to people who don't deal with their bank and who have the means or assets to pay. It's not generally relevant where one is insolvent.
Hi
I have had a similar experience with Danske, they have repossessed the buy to let property over small arrears that we offered to clear, but they didn't want to know. Don't know where we stand from now on, have you had any developments?
Huge worry over small money, they seam very ruthless and unwilling to communicate!
I have had a similar experience with Danske, they have repossessed the buy to let property over small arrears that we offered to clear, but they didn't want to know. Don't know where we stand from now on, have you had any developments?
Huge worry over small money, they seam very ruthless and unwilling to communicate!
Hi,
We recently had experience of a brief case in the High Court with Danske. You can expect fees of between 7,000 and upwards for briefing barristers and solicitors in the preparation stages and if the High Court case were to go for a few sessions you can be looking at Euro 30,000 and spiralling quickly upwards. also got to say that the Danke barristers were well prepared and convincing and the judge gave both sides an equal hearing. You might think your case sounds good on paper but standing up in court the other side is very well able to dismantle it.
So In your shoes Id get prepared. Best of luck.
We recently had experience of a brief case in the High Court with Danske. You can expect fees of between 7,000 and upwards for briefing barristers and solicitors in the preparation stages and if the High Court case were to go for a few sessions you can be looking at Euro 30,000 and spiralling quickly upwards. also got to say that the Danke barristers were well prepared and convincing and the judge gave both sides an equal hearing. You might think your case sounds good on paper but standing up in court the other side is very well able to dismantle it.
So In your shoes Id get prepared. Best of luck.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
- Messages
- 53,718
Hi music
What was the nature of your High Court case? If they were seeking repossession, did you have a valid defence?
Brendan
What was the nature of your High Court case? If they were seeking repossession, did you have a valid defence?
Brendan
hi Brendan
Without getting specific, the Bank was seeking repayment of the total debt. We believed we had a reasonable defence, for their part the Bank believed their case was good.
What really counts in Court however is what agreements were legally and freely entered into. Vague allusions along the lines of; the bank practically made me take the money, they should have known better, etc, cut no ice (they were certainly not part of our defence, but I could see from other cases that they were worse than useless).
Also be under no illusion, your barrister, while hopefully stoutly defending your case, is still a hired professional. As soon as the judge calls his decision, it's done. Theres no one standing there for your side protesting "but but but..."
Your guy will then discuss your slim options -if you have any left - and depart smartly for his next case. It's all in a days work. That said, I would rather have a legal pro by my side than go it alone in there. I saw a few people representing themselves and although it seemed to me that every effort was made to accommodate them, they were making very heavy weather of it.
Without getting specific, the Bank was seeking repayment of the total debt. We believed we had a reasonable defence, for their part the Bank believed their case was good.
What really counts in Court however is what agreements were legally and freely entered into. Vague allusions along the lines of; the bank practically made me take the money, they should have known better, etc, cut no ice (they were certainly not part of our defence, but I could see from other cases that they were worse than useless).
Also be under no illusion, your barrister, while hopefully stoutly defending your case, is still a hired professional. As soon as the judge calls his decision, it's done. Theres no one standing there for your side protesting "but but but..."
Your guy will then discuss your slim options -if you have any left - and depart smartly for his next case. It's all in a days work. That said, I would rather have a legal pro by my side than go it alone in there. I saw a few people representing themselves and although it seemed to me that every effort was made to accommodate them, they were making very heavy weather of it.
F
Fin Crusader
Guest
Up the west,
Firstly,I wish to sympathise with your position. Unfortunately just by bringing your arrears up to date does not preclude a bank from enforcing its security over your properties when you are in breach of contract. Danske Bank strategy is to leave the irish retail banking market place as quickly as possible. However in their haste to exit even large financial organisations may make mistakes.
Now, to addressing your situation, for you to fight your case effectively you must obtain all documentation etc that Danske Bank have about you in relation to your dealings with them. I would immediately send in a routine data access request to the Data Compliance Officer at Danske bank with the appropriate fee of 6.35 euro ( template of request can be found on the Data Protection Commissioner Office website ). In this request I would look for all internal emails dealing with your mortgages especially those from the asset recovery unit, and also a transcript of all telephone conversation you had with the Bank from the time you entered arrears.
I would also check to see did Danske Bank send you a notice pursuant to section 54 of the Consumer Credit Act 1995. This notice is extremely important to the bank as without it, any subsequent legal demand would be invalid. This notice was probably served on you by registered post or courier so that the bank can prove service in court, if there was an argument about receiving same.
I would also check the wording of the the legal demand from Danske bank solicitors to see if the actual word " demand" is contained within in the demand letter.
Finally I would employ the expertise of a forensic accountant seeing that the arrears figure was quite small (1300 euro). If the accountant can prove the bank have overcharged you by an amount in excess of this figure then Danske Bank are in real trouble. You would technically have complied with the terms and conditions of you loan as you would not have been in default. For the accountant to do this job he needs a copy of all statements of accounts that you had with danske bank from inception. You can request same when making your routine access request via their data compliance officer. Even if the accountant finds that the overcharging do not total 1300 but significantly erode that figure your case against Danske is strengthened. A High Court Judge would not take too kindly to Danske banks aggressive strategy of enforcement over a few hundred euro.
Firstly,I wish to sympathise with your position. Unfortunately just by bringing your arrears up to date does not preclude a bank from enforcing its security over your properties when you are in breach of contract. Danske Bank strategy is to leave the irish retail banking market place as quickly as possible. However in their haste to exit even large financial organisations may make mistakes.
Now, to addressing your situation, for you to fight your case effectively you must obtain all documentation etc that Danske Bank have about you in relation to your dealings with them. I would immediately send in a routine data access request to the Data Compliance Officer at Danske bank with the appropriate fee of 6.35 euro ( template of request can be found on the Data Protection Commissioner Office website ). In this request I would look for all internal emails dealing with your mortgages especially those from the asset recovery unit, and also a transcript of all telephone conversation you had with the Bank from the time you entered arrears.
I would also check to see did Danske Bank send you a notice pursuant to section 54 of the Consumer Credit Act 1995. This notice is extremely important to the bank as without it, any subsequent legal demand would be invalid. This notice was probably served on you by registered post or courier so that the bank can prove service in court, if there was an argument about receiving same.
I would also check the wording of the the legal demand from Danske bank solicitors to see if the actual word " demand" is contained within in the demand letter.
Finally I would employ the expertise of a forensic accountant seeing that the arrears figure was quite small (1300 euro). If the accountant can prove the bank have overcharged you by an amount in excess of this figure then Danske Bank are in real trouble. You would technically have complied with the terms and conditions of you loan as you would not have been in default. For the accountant to do this job he needs a copy of all statements of accounts that you had with danske bank from inception. You can request same when making your routine access request via their data compliance officer. Even if the accountant finds that the overcharging do not total 1300 but significantly erode that figure your case against Danske is strengthened. A High Court Judge would not take too kindly to Danske banks aggressive strategy of enforcement over a few hundred euro.
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F
Fin Crusader
Guest
IMPORTANT, Up the west,
DON'T FORGET you only have till February 2015 ( 6 years statute of limitations applies ) to file a complaint against Danske bank, if you believe they were overcharging you on your " variable rate home loan" or "fixed rate home loan" that then reverted to the "variable rate home loan" on your investment properties. Danske bank altered the terms and conditions of these " home Loan" mortgages in February 2009 without the mortgagors permission.
This does not mean you have to actually instigate legal proceeding by February 2015, all you have to do is get your solicitor to file certain documents in the central office Four Courts, Dublin, or the regional court area you are in, which are then given a reference number. This action will give you a further 12 months to actually bring legal proceedings before a court, you may alternatively avail of the office of the Financial ombudsman, which has found in several similar cases against Danske Bank.
Fin Crusader.
DON'T FORGET you only have till February 2015 ( 6 years statute of limitations applies ) to file a complaint against Danske bank, if you believe they were overcharging you on your " variable rate home loan" or "fixed rate home loan" that then reverted to the "variable rate home loan" on your investment properties. Danske bank altered the terms and conditions of these " home Loan" mortgages in February 2009 without the mortgagors permission.
This does not mean you have to actually instigate legal proceeding by February 2015, all you have to do is get your solicitor to file certain documents in the central office Four Courts, Dublin, or the regional court area you are in, which are then given a reference number. This action will give you a further 12 months to actually bring legal proceedings before a court, you may alternatively avail of the office of the Financial ombudsman, which has found in several similar cases against Danske Bank.
Fin Crusader.
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